Battery & Charger System - Suggestions

[Marc G]

I am a recent owner of a 1987 Catalina 34 - "Spellbound".
BEFORE I had the opportunity to read the terrific information available here, I rewired the battery system on the boat with all my best intentions.

I have attached a sketch (PDF) of my arrangement and would like comments and suggestions on the arrangement for improvements.

Using a Blue Sea Systems 5511e switch I divided the battery banks into 2 separate but joinable systems.
All battery wiring is new 2AWG. A common ground point is installed for all grounds in the House battery compartment (Salon aft seat).
I selected the Quest isolator based upon my previous years experience as a power boat owner and the isolators were quite common and trouble free in my usage.

The alternator has the Orange "Sense" wire disconnected  completely.
There was, and is, an Echo charger installed, but is not wired at present.

The additional console breaker and switches for cabin lights, water pressure and anchor lights would allow me to open the main battery switch to OFF, and just use the bypass circuit for evenings on the hook with nothing else energized.
Thank you in advance....

Marc

[prh77]

The one thing that stands out is that the " sense " wire is disconnected. This will lead to an overvolt situation as the alternator has no reference to control the regulator.

[Stu Jackson]

Marc,

Hi, and welcome.  Don't know how far down you've drilled on the "Electrical 101" thread, but here's one you should be aware of:  

AGM Battery Issues and the Blue Seas Dual Circuit Switch (from Maine Sail) "DARN AGM Batteries"
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=848465&highlight=darn%20agm

As long as YOU understand the serious limitations of the Blue Sea Dual Circuit switch, you should be OK.

You should reconsider the isolator, since it is dropping anywhere from 1/2 to 1 volt of charging voltage.  Replace it with the echo charger.  That will allow you to leave the DC switch in the house bank position and provide the small amount of charge to the start bank.  You should research that battery sense wire, too.  It normally should be connected to the house bank, but most OEM alternators had internal regulation, so I'm not sure what's going on on your boat with that.

Given the link above, I would caution you to never use the combine position, regardless of the types of batteries you have.

Depending on how you sail, your house bank seems inordinately small.  If you marina-hop, not an issue, if you want to stay out on anchor, even without a fridge, it seems small.

Can you explain the separation of the three circuits off the house bank with the 15A main fuse and the separate House Power Console?

Good luck, nice diagram.

[Marc G]

Hello Stu,
I started reading the Electrical 101 after I had completed the rewiring of the boat. (hindsite....)
The Blue Seas dual circuit switch was recommended by a marine electrician. I had never seen this type before and he touted it as a very safe way to go, hence I incorporated it. The boat had an original Perko 2-ALL-1-OFF (clockwise) switch, I still have it.
(Question here: In E101 a writer said to never go though the BOTH position. Usually you are told not to go to OFF with the engine running. I have not seen a switch that would permit 1-2-ALL-OFF. Is this available?)
I am capable and willing re-wire to install a new switch and schematic.
I can also remove the isolator and hook up the ECHO charger. (I'm getting pretty good at renovating the boat....)
What would the diagram look like with the correct switch and the ECHO?
I am assuming the AO woudl goes directly to the House Bank as well as the Sense wire, with the Echo feeding the Starter Bat.

The 3 separate house circuits are a work on paper at this point.
My thinking was to remove the potential for any unrequired/accidental power drain from the Start battery, and limit the drain on the house bank batteries when on the hook or mooring.  With the dual circuit Blues Seas, turning the Main Bat SW to OFF would isolate the batteries.
Turning on the new 15A breaker feed (connected to the House Bank directly) to the Cabin Lights, Water Pump and Anchor light (and possibly the stereo or VHF) would provide all essential living accommodations, and remove the chance to drain the Start Bat., and prevent accidentally powering up some other loads on the House Bat. (BTW, all cabin lighting is LED. Very low drain.)
The House bank was existing when I bough the boat.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate your expertise greatly!

Marc

[Stu Jackson]

1.  The boat had an original Perko 2-ALL-1-OFF (clockwise) switch, I still have it.
(Question here: In E101 a writer said to never go though the BOTH position. Usually you are told not to go to OFF with the engine running. I have not seen a switch that would permit 1-2-ALL-OFF. Is this available?)

2.  I am capable and willing re-wire to install a new switch and schematic.

3.  I can also remove the isolator and hook up the ECHO charger. (I'm getting pretty good at renovating the boat....)

4.  What would the diagram look like with the correct switch and the ECHO?
I am assuming the AO would goes directly to the House Bank as well as the Sense wire, with the Echo feeding the Starter Bat.

5.  The 3 separate house circuits are a work on paper at this point.   My thinking was to remove the potential for any unrequired/accidental power drain from the Start battery, and limit the drain on the house bank batteries when on the hook or mooring.  With the dual circuit Blues Seas, turning the Main Bat SW to OFF would isolate the batteries.  Turning on the new 15A breaker feed (connected to the House Bank directly) to the Cabin Lights, Water Pump and Anchor light (and possibly the stereo or VHF) would provide all essential living accommodations, and remove the chance to drain the Start Bat., and prevent accidentally powering up some other loads on the House Bat. (BTW, all cabin lighting is LED. Very low drain.)

6.  The House bank was existing when I bought the boat.

Marc,

1.   Old 1-2-B switch:  If you still have it and want to reinstall it, I highly recommend it, based on the discussions in Electrical 101, Basic Battery Wiring, further down the page in the first post there.  I agree with you about switch positions.  Mine is 2-B-1-Off.  The concern that was posted was if the switch became faulty AND the AO still went to the C post of the 1-2-B switch, there could, theoretically, be an interruption of the AO and fired diodes.  Highly unlikely, but possible.  However, and here's where Maine Sail and I both highly recommend moving the AO to the house bank becomes critically important:  if you do, you can turn the switch OFF and never hurt the alternator!!!

2.    and 4.   If you want to remove the DC switch and replace it with the old 1-2-B switch, then the answer is simple, this is the link:  Basic Battery Wiring Diagrams  This is a very good basic primer for boat system wiring: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html

3.   Yes, good idea.  Once you put in the EC, just run the SP charger to your house bank.

4.   See 2 above.

5.   If you reinstall the 1-2-B switch, then you don't need to do this.  The start (reserve) bank is on #2 and never would get "touched" at all when operating on #1, per the discussions in "E 101".

6.   OK, when you get around to doing an energy budget you can decide what's the right house bank size for your boat use.  The energy budget link is also in E101.

Any more questions, please let us know.

[Roc]

Marc,
Blue Seas Systems has the switch you are looking for.  You can rotate it in either direction so you don't pass "all". 

http://www.bluesea.com/products/9002e/e-Series_Selector_Battery_Switch_with_AFD

[Stu Jackson]

Good find, Roc.  However, if he moves his AO to the house bank, it simply won't matter anymore.

[mainesail]

Marc,
Blue Seas Systems has the switch you are looking for.  You can rotate it in either direction so you don't pass "all". 

http://www.bluesea.com/products/9002e/e-Series_Selector_Battery_Switch_with_AFD

Guy's there is ZERO issue with passing through the ALL position. The issue is passing through the OFF position with the engine running. Passing through OFF can FRY the alternator diodes if your alternator is factory wired through the starter post and then onto the "C" post of the battery switch.

When you don't want to use ALL is when one bank is physically dead and you need to start the motor. Combining  a large dead bank with a good small bank only serves to tap the "oomph" of the good starter battery. Instead, isolate the bad bank and start on the good one. If the bad bank was only dead because you discharged it then once the engine is running simply flip to ALL so as to re-charge the dead bank.

[mainesail]

The alternator has the Orange "Sense" wire disconnected  completely.

If this is really the volt sense wire then this can DESTROY your batteries by over charging them. The volt sense wire tells the regulator when to limit the field current by limiting the voltage to the regulators set point.. With v-sense disconnected your alt will always be in "bulk" mode, can't see a voltage, and the voltage can easily climb past 17 volts.....!!! You may want to confirm what the orange wire does on your alt...

Orange on most Universals was a 10GA wire for the ammeter in the engine panel.. The ammeter may have been removed, which is VERY GOOD, and the orange wire is no longer used. This orange wire is not a v-sense for the regulator, it was part of the factory alternator output circuit.

[Stu Jackson]

Marc, to reinforce Maine Sail's last point, also from the E101 topic:

OEM 1-2-B Switch Wiring History  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.msg30101.html#msg30101

The wire between the starter and the alternator was the orange wire. 

More information on that is in the wiring harness "upgrade" too:

http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Engine_Harness_Upgrade

It includes the wiring colors between the engine and the cockpit panel.

[Roc]

I replaced my Perko switch with the Blue Seas switch.  When I added the reserve battery, I wanted to be able to move the switch from #2 (which is my house batt and also used for starting), to #1 (connected to reserve batt) WITHOUT passing through "ALL", which the Perko does.  I didn't want to combine a bad battery with a good one, hence ruining the good one in the process.  The Blue Seas switch lets you toggle in either direction to put the switch in the mode you want without having to pass through 'ALL'.  I always have the switch set to the house bank, so when the engine is started, it tops off the house bank.  I have a separate 10A True Charge battery charger connected to the reserve battery.  That battery gets charged whenever I'm hooked up to shore power.  My two banks will never be combined, unless I put the switch to ALL (in the case of the Blue Seas switch, that is the 1+2 detent).

[Ron Hill]

Guys : Mainsail is correct, never purchase a battery selector switch that does not have the "make before break" technology.

I'm not that sure that Roc analysis of the passing thru "ALL" make a RAOD for that fraction of a second - for the additional cost. 

My thought 

[Roc]

The reason I got the switch (Blue Seas Systems), was because the Perko switch toggled only left or right, and always passing "ALL".  If I had a bad bank, I didn't want to pass "ALL", thus ruining the good battery.  I wanted a switch that I could go to one bank, pass "OFF" then go to the other bank.  This way the batteries would never be combined, in the event one bank was bad.

I understand, never put the switch to "OFF" if the motor is running.  That wasn't the point here.

[mainesail]

The reason I got the switch (Blue Seas Systems), was because the Perko switch toggled only left or right, and always passing "ALL".  If I had a bad bank, I didn't want to pass "ALL", thus ruining the good battery.  I wanted a switch that I could go to one bank, pass "OFF" then go to the other bank.  This way the batteries would never be combined, in the event one bank was bad.

I understand, never put the switch to "OFF" if the motor is running.  That wasn't the point here.

You won't ruin a good battery with a split second pass through the ALL position. I have seen dead shorted batteries that vaporized 10GA wire, which took time, and those batts continue on to this day and they suffered no measurable damage..

Every time you start a motor your in-rush is similar to a quick pass through ALL, but only IF it had a dead short... The reality is that batteries do not "dead/crowbar short" when they fail they develop small internal leaks/shorts that simply drain the rest of the bank over time.

The only time ALL would be bad is leaving it there over time with a really badly failed bank. It can eventually kill the second bank by sucking its capacity through the fault. This does take time though and will not happen in a split second. This usually happens with banks that are already well beyond their useful life.

Once again. There is zero need for concern of passing through the ALL position, even with a bad bank or for that matter even with a dead short... Your pass through ALL will be a very short duration, like 0.2 second, and the other bank won't even notice it even if it was dead shorted. That said the Blue Sea switches are better quality than Perko and do not require any pass through ALL if you don't want to. However, if you have a Perko please don't just swap it out over a non-issue.

I have bench tested and blown literally hundreds of high amp fuses in dead shorts. The spikes, even on a 400A fuse are massive before it trips. I don't even have the capacity to measure this instantaneous spike. The batteries I have used for testing still perform perfectly to this day.... There is nothing in a typical "bad bank" that could ever come close to the instantaneous current developed in blowing a 300 or 400A ANL..

Just a sampling of a batch of 100A ANL's that I blew with a LA bank. I have done them up to 400A....


This video is not totally relevant but we can see in this video that the in-rush on this fues blow exceeded the capability of a 1000A Fluke clamp on ammeter capable of measuring very fast transients to 1000A DC. I have literally done this hundreds of times on LA batteries and about 45-50 times on the LiFePO4 bank shown. The batteries shrug this testing off like nothing happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3gzhep8w4A&feature=share&list=UUoPqTkOluQsuu3RpGnxVwFw

[Marc G]

Thank you all for the "Training Session".
I will be incorporating changes soon.
As for the Sierra 18-6263 alternator, Sense wire (orange).

From some research I am finding the orange wire on this Alt. is for an indicator light (when showing no charge)

The Sense wire is actually a jumper from the BAT connection "B" to the sense terminal on the back of the alternator.  I believe I can change that to go to the house battery directly.

I have attached an updated sketch with the alternator.

Marc