Engine replacement

[dmcmd]

I'm ready to swap out my 25 year old M25 for a M25XPB and before I take the plunge would like some updated feedback on a few issues.

1.  I have the original M25 not the XP.  Has anyone made the jump to the XPB and what was your experience with the need for engine bed or companionway modifications.  Would a lower profile mount avoided the need to cut away the engine bed rails as Ron described in the 2009 tech notes.

2.  Does anyone have the M25 Basic dimensions.  I've made some measurements but have not been able to get my hands on the published dimensions for comparison to the XPB?

3.  Ken Roy at Catalina thinks I'll need to replace the original engine panel.  Any thoughts to the contrary?

4.  I re-wired Inspiration in 2005 as per Jim Moe's excellent instructions on this website (except no glow plug relay) and have been very happy with the result.  I would like to keep my Balmar alternator and external regulator.  Does anyone have a wiring diagram with the M25XPB Admiral Panel, Jim's electrical system revisions and the Balmar Alternator.

5.  The M25XPB manual suggests a flexible coupling.  Is this mandatory mandatory or nice to have?  I'm concerned about distance between PSS shaft seal and the coupling. 

Thanks
Dennis
Inspiration 221

[lazybone]

I too have a similiarlly aged engine which runs well, keeps it temps, burns no oil and seems to still have good power.  What has happened to your engine that makes replacing it necessary?  I've been told if these lumps are given the proper maitenace the'll practically live forever?

Some background info might help the rest of us.

[Gary]

Dennis,

I have the engine specifications/measurements you request in an Adobe File. I seem to not be able to attach this kind of file here but can send as an attachment to you if provided an email address. It is in chart format and is published by Westerbeke.  

Gary

[Ron Hill]

Dennis : What you need to do is relook at my Manisheet Article "Replacing your C34 engine".   I believe that most of your questions are answered!!

The M25 has almost the identical foot print of the M25XP, but the M25XPB is slightly longer.  I also had some input from 2 other C34 owners that installed the M25XPB engine. Neither owner was of much help as they were not closely involved with their engine installation.

I cut the engine bed down as we were off by about 1/2".  Maybe if we had used the inside engine mount holes (Atomic 4 holes) and hadn't mounted the mounts in the outer hole and on an aluminum strip the Universal mounts would have fit ???

I kept the same "Catalina" engine (rectangle) panel mainly because the Universal Admiral panel (square) wouldn't fit in the space of the Catalina Panel.  I installed my Balmar hi-output alternator with the external regulator.  I also have a flexable coupling installed, but doubt if a PSS drippless would also fit.  In fact I rewired the engine to fit the boat wiring, rather than the other way around.

Re-read my article and then ask me some more questions.

[Stu Jackson]

I'm ready to swap out my 25 year old M25 for a M25XPB and before I take the plunge would like some updated feedback on a few issues.

1.  I have the original M25 not the XP.  Has anyone made the jump to the XPB and what was your experience with the need for engine bed or companionway modifications.  Would a lower profile mount avoided the need to cut away the engine bed rails as Ron described in the 2009 tech notes.

2.  Does anyone have the M25 Basic dimensions.  I've made some measurements but have not been able to get my hands on the published dimensions for comparison to the XPB?

3.  Ken Roy at Catalina thinks I'll need to replace the original engine panel.  Any thoughts to the contrary?

4.  I re-wired Inspiration in 2005 as per Jim Moe's excellent instructions on this website (except no glow plug relay) and have been very happy with the result.  I would like to keep my Balmar alternator and external regulator.  Does anyone have a wiring diagram with the M25XPB Admiral Panel, Jim's electrical system revisions and the Balmar Alternator.

5.  The M25XPB manual suggests a flexible coupling.  Is this mandatory mandatory or nice to have?  I'm concerned about distance between PSS shaft seal and the coupling.  

Dennis,

1.  Stringers:  It sure sounds like you DID read Ron's writeup, right?  Sounds like that's the reality of the engine exchange.

2.  Dimensions:  Try the C34 Tech wiki, manuals.  IIRC, the dimensions are right there.  http://www.c34.org/manuals/ServiceManual.pdf

3.  Panel swap:  It all depends on what you have now.  If you still have the old ammeter, then read the Engine Wiring Harness article in the "Critical Upgrades" thread on this board (also on the wiki under Engine).  That becomes the basis of what you'll need to do compared to what you have to do.  Without seeing your boat and the panel, and more input from you as to what you now have, there's probably no one who can answer that question from a remote location.  Depends on the condition of your panel.

4.  Alternator and panel wiring:  There should be no difference based on what you said.  Since you already have done Jim's electrical update, the alternator output remains the alternator output, period.  You're done.  Easy, huh?  The panel output and input wiring relate to the engine functions through the wiring harness, and not to the charging system from the alternator, other than the connections between the starter solenoid and the alternator, that silly stupid orange wire.  You've already done away with that.  IIRC, Ron also kept his old alternator, noted in his report, not an issue with an engine replacement, it's just like having an older engine and replacing the alternator.  If your new engine comes with an alternator, I recommend saving the OEM alternator as a replacement.  Steve Dolling kept his and needed it on his cruise.  It won't be externally regulated, but you can swap it out in the future if you need it.  I wouldn't externally regulate an OEM alternator anyway.

5.  Coupling:  IIRC, Ron discussed this in his report.  I don't personally see it as "required" but this is a "your boat, your choice" issue.

[dmcmd]

Thanks all for the feedback.

Gary, my email is dmcmd2000@cox.net.  I'd like to see the dimesions you have.  I've have the manual referenced by Stu but unless I'm  missing something that looks like a land version without engine mount locations, heat exchanger or transmission.

Ron, I've studied your article and this web site very carefully.  It was one of my inspirations for taking on this project. Your line "Measure accurately before you purchase a longer engine than your M25XPA!"  really got my attention.  If I can use "different engine mounts" rather than modifying the engine bed Id like have them ahead of time.  I don't mind some carpentry on the companionway.  My measurements indicate that it will be unavoidable.

As to the why there is no short answer.  It's a risk vs benefit and timing question and different people will come up with different conclusions.   
I plan to keep "Inspiration" for a long time.  TLC goes a long way but it's unrealistic to think this engine will last another 10-20 years.  It probably won't fail in the slip.  If I'm "motoring" there is a reason I'm not "sailing".  It just seems that replacing the engine before it fails makes sense.
This topic has been covered extensivly but my conclusion is that while the 23 Hp XP is up to the job the 21Hp M25 was barely adequate for the C34 when new and mine just doesn't have the power anymore.  I can do 6 knots with calm seas and a clean bottom but any chop at all and I'm down to 4.5 with the engine straining.   I've tried many of the fixes recommended on this site but if I'm going to need a new/rebuilt engine at some point anyway I might as well reap the benefits of the extra power now.
Finally Catalina has some XS inventory and is giving a good price.  If I replace the engine on my terms I can set aside some time and do most of the work myself.  If I wait for it to fail I could be out of commision a good long time before I can make the time to replace it.

Anyone else with success/horror stories about engine replacement?

"Learn from others mistakes, life is too short to make them all youself"

Thanks again

[Stu Jackson]

"Learn from others' mistakes, life is too short to make them all yourself"

"Learn from others mistakes and your own, life is too short so go out and make new ones"

Dennis,

Sounds like a good plan.  Keep good documentation, so0 when it's my turn to do this, you and Ron will have pointed the way.  

There could be additional input on why you "shouldn't need to do this," but heck, it's your boat and your choice, and a good one, too.

Just hope they don't run outta M25XPBs before I'm ready to pull the trigger.

----  A Happy M25 owner (2,482 engine hours and still purrin'...)  

PS - Did you try www.marinedieseldirect.com for M25 dimensions (with the back end and HX)?  The engine mounts are pretty much where yours are now, and should be shown on the engine-only drawings, 'cuz the HX and transmission don't change the location of the "feet."

[Ron Hill]

Dennis : Why don't you give me a telephone call as I'm just up the road in Fredericksburg Va (540)891-5297.  I find conversation much more helpful that searching a site or tapping out messages !!

In the meantime, I'll send you the dimension figures that I have by Email.  I also will send you the measurement numbers that I still have and copies of the pictures with dimensions for the M25XP and M25XPB by US Mail.  Sorry, I've thrown out all of my cut sheets on the M25.  

My Main message when I said  "Measure accurately as.... before you select a replacement for your M25XPA" was to dispel all of the Doubting Thomas's that I was crazy not to replace the M25XP with a 35hp M35B engine. It simply wouldn't fit !!

BTW, (as Dennis mentioned) if you have your new Mainsheet Nov 2010, look on page T21 and you'll see that Catalina factory has several new "M 25" engines in the crate (excess to invintory) that can be sold at a "deeply discounted prices to Catalina owners".  My thought - Seeing as how the "M25" has been out of production since 1987, I'll guess these are M25XB engines.  Might be worth checking out!!  
 
A few thoughts.  Hope to hear from you.

[Ron Hill]

Everyone interested in a new M25XPB engine might want to look at the last paragraph of my post - just above.  
I understand they are going for $5500.  That'a a great price!!  A thought

[David Sanner]

That does sound like a good price...

I'll put my plug in for Beta Marine... they have some
nice improvements over the M25Xxx including an
integrated heat exchanger, cast oil pan (both
reduce engine noise),  built-in oil change pump
and a few other nice mods.

[Lance Jones]

As I am here for the St. Pete boat show, I went by and talked to Ken Roy at Catalina to pick up some parts for Kitty's Cat. I saw the motors in question. They are the M25XPB. Ken says the price is a little over $5k. They also have ACs, Refrigerator systems etc. If you need a C-34 sail cover, they have several for SUPER prices.

As I've said many times before, DON'T HESITATE TO CALL CATALINA FOR PARTS -- FIRST.

[Stu Jackson]

I'll put my plug in for Beta Marine... they have some
nice improvements over the M25Xxx including an
integrated heat exchanger, cast oil pan (both
reduce engine noise),  built-in oil change pump
and a few other nice mods.

Dave,  what model Beta do you have in mind, the 28 3 cylinder?  I'm not so sure the built in HX is a good thing, since servicing ours is very easy.  But the built-in oil change pump sure is handy, but again, not too hard to do on our engines with the hose already there.

[David Sanner]

If I recall the back half of the HX opens up for easy cleaning.
Also it's mounted on the side of the exhaust water jacket
for easy access as well as fewer hoses running around.

From my  previous post: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4725.0.html

They use the same kubota blocks but are packaged differently than
Westerbeke... a nice improvement from what I've seen.

- very quiet & smooth running.
- heat exchanger built on top of exhaust manifold which
  helps with noise,  significantly less hoses including
  hard piped seawater from pump to exchanger,
  exhaust injection elbow on engine .
- improved air intake. (quiet)
- built in oil pump for changes, easy access to fuel filter
- much better polyvee belt can drive 100amp alternator.
- stop solenoid,  fuel pump, better balanced crank pulley
- 25 & 28 hp 3 cylinder models & 4cyl 35hp models

----

btw, I've never owned one, don't know anyone who works for
Beta M, just looks to me like they did a better job than Westerbeke

[Ron Hill]

Guys : With all of this talk about Beta engines, I'm sure that you have looked over the C30 tech section of this Nov 2010 Mainsheet. 
John Pecha selected a 20hp Beta to replace an M25 in his C30.  It would be interesting to find out why he selected the 20hp over the other 3 cylinder 25 or 28hp Betas??

There are three major considerations (limiting factors) when selecting an C34 engine replacement :
1. engine compartment space
2. exhaust system
3. connection to the drive shaft

I leave you all with those thoughts.