Need a little advice

[Peggie Hall]

A friend here in town has decided that he wants a small sailboat...he's narrowed his choices down to two Catalinas, a 22 pop top that I'm going with him to look at tomorrow and a 25 fixed keel.  Now, I know this the C 34 forum...but I'm betting that some of you started small and therefore can give me some advice for him re the pros/cons of each one.  They're both older...the 25 is a 1980, desperately needs new interior cushions, but otherwise is in very good shape...rigging, sails--which include a spinnaker btw, hull, deck etc. Owner is asking $6k without a trailer...not sure how negotiable he is.

The 22 pop top has been totally restored by a meticulous pro here in Arkansas...about the same age...only seen photos (seeing boat tomorrow)...looks like a brand new boat. Has furling jib (not sure that's a plus)  Price with trailer: $4800.

They both need a toilet and tank...that'll be an "MSD" portapotty, so no big deal there.   

So new to sailing that they're not even novices yet...will be on a small inland lake...planning to take ASA sailing lessons.   Wife is more likely to be a passenger than crew...and may have a little problem with motion sickness. Has two teenage sons who may discover racing (not necessarily on this boat).  So...

Just how tender is a 22 compared to a 25?   Which is the better value?  Are either one a good value at their asking price? What else can any of y'all tell me that'll help me help him make a decision and his wife are likely to be happy with?

[Lance Jones]

Peggie,
I love the 22 and have owned 3 of them. The 22 will tend to rock more; but, there have been a gazzillion manufactured so parts and advice are never hard to find. It is probably the most versatile of the two as it is a great pocket cruiser that can be trailered nearly anywhere and has a very strong One Design race class.

The 25 is more solid on the water; but, may not have the same great qualities of sail that the 22 has. However, it does have more room on the boat for a family of 4. If it is a fixed keel, will need deep water to launch. If it is the swing keel (a 1500lb nightmare) it can launch in similar water to the 22; but, has a maintenance issue with the swing keel (Hard to drop and work on)

[Stu Jackson]

We had a swing keel 1981 C22 from 1982 or 3 to 87 and a fixed keel 1981 C25 from 87 to 1998 when we bought Aquavite.  With the ASA instructor on his lake, he should get the C25, his wife will love him for it, and he can learn to sail on his own boat.  The difference in space between the two boats is HUGE.  The freeboard is like 10 times higher.  The C25 sails just as good if not better than the C22.  We sailed our trailer-sailed pop top C22 on San Francisco Bay during the winters and on Clear Lake (in the water at a dock) during the summers.  We stayed on board anchored out on the lake every weekend from before Memorial Day to after Labor Day.  One Labor Day weekend it was so windy we had to hunker down at anchor behind an island for two days.  Got real small, real fast.  Still fun, but no standing headroom.  The C25 had the pop top and we bought an enclosure.  Heaven.  Sailed it on SF Bay and out in the ocean to Monterey and back - really stable boat compared to the C22.  The C25 had the traditional layout down below, much more room with the table up than the dinette model, which would be "smaller" down below, but good for setting up athwartship sleeping arrangements.  The C25 website message board is almost as good as this one!  If he has to remove the boat from the lake, then he has a different issue without the trailer and the fixed keel.  Servicing swing keels is doable, bu a real pain.  Fixed keels are fun - no work!

Neither of them had roller furling, it was just being re-invented back then.  I read Pat Royce's Sailing Illustrated and rigged a jib downhaul line.  Sail on port tack, heave to, douse jib right onto the foredeck and it's all neatly stacked on the hanks, easy to roll and bag at the end of a sail.

[Terry Forshier]

I have owned several small sailboats but not a small Catalina. My experience though says go with a 25 vs a 22 or 23. There is a BIG difference in everything (on the water and at anchor) and the 25 will be a lot more forgiving in any kind of weather. With so many boats for sale i would advise him to search more. At least look at 2 or 3 25's before you jump. Lots of places to look on line. sailboatlistings.com, craigs list, the catalina forums and local brokerage houses. good luck Terry

[Exodus]

I agree with Terry.  I would go for a 25 unless your friend is looking for a boat that he can haul on a trailer easily.

I would think the 25 could be bought for less than 6.  I recently sold my 1981 Hunter 27 that was in excellent condition for only $6,100 after initially listing at $11,000.   It is truly a buyers market.

[horsemel]

Our first boat was a San Juan 24.  It was the best sailing boat I have ever been on, bar none.  We had a ball sailing this boat, but it was spartan for sleeping and other amenities.  For the pure joy of sailing it was fantastic.  I would go with the 25.  A number of years ago a friend of mine had a pop-up sail boat.  It did not sail well, leaked like a sieve and soured him on sailing.  If you want a pop-up get a camper, if you want a sailboat, get a sail boat
Mark Mueller

[Peggie Hall]

Thank you all for your advice here and via email. I was pretty sure y'all would have some good advice based on previous experience, and I was right.  I've forwarded the emails to him along with a link to this thread.  He's busy on a C22 and C25 forum collecting their opinions.

I really appreciate your input and I'm sure he will too!

[Stu Jackson]

Mark, good points, however, the C25 pop top does NOT leak.  It is very well designed.  And once at anchor, it is a fantastic way to increase your space down below to standing headroom.  Man, what a difference!!!  Other boats may not have gotten the pop top right, but Frank surely did with the Catalina 25.  The fit and finish of the interior of a vintage 1980s C25 is just as good as our vintage C34s.  Solid, stiff and seaworthy.

And, just for grins & giggles, they now make gas struts to help us vintage sailors raise the pop top instead of just using brute force!!!  Neat.  All documented on the C25 Association website.  Which is here (didn't think you'd let me get away without a link, would ya?): http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=3

They also have an "Admirals Forum" for those of us who have purchased larger boats, even non-Catalinas - heaven forbid...  Oh well, Ericson 32s have our engines...

[Stephen Butler]

Our first cruising boat was an Irwin 23 and the what a positive difference the additional volume made when compared to a 21 footer.   Would suggest going with the 25 footer...the family will thank you, particularly at anchor and the conditions in which you can sail will be much expanded.
Hope this is of help.

[horsemel]

I must defer to Stu's comments on the pop top C25.  I am not familiar with it.  The pop top that I referenced was smaller and not a Catalina.  The top came up like a camper and had canvas sides.  When you lowered it the thing would never seat correctly and leaked.  Then the thing would mildew.  The boat completely ruined my firend' ideas about future boating.  Darned if I can remember the make after all these years.
Mark Mueller

[Peggie Hall]

He bought the 1980 C25.  Thanks for all your input!

[Ron Hill]

Peggy : As you found out  - the C34 Message Board is not short of advice !! 

Your friend made the right decision between the C22 and C25.  Bigger is definitely better!!