Hot water tank heating loop leak

[scotty]

I like the idea of leaving the towels under the water heater for a while - leaks are funny and might show up in different circumstances.  I thought that it might work better to use an oil discharge pad (you know, a diaper) because it might hold up better if you left it there for a while?  Good luck on finding the leak.

[tonywright]

Since you now think it is water rather than coolant, you need to consider whether you had a winterization issue with your tank. A member of our club with a MKII had to switch out a hot water tank after one winter. It is important to get ALL of the water out each winter with our temperatures: I use a dinghy pump to blow the last of the water out after draining it.

Tony

[Fred Koehlmann]

Hi Tony,

You might be right. I did use a shopvac this last fall, instead of using the old antifreeze primarily because I thought I would try something different because the Admiral seems to be able to taste the stuff even after multiple flushings in the spring. So maybe I didn't get everthing. I guess I could test this by draining all the water tanks and see if the leak stops.

[tonywright]

Here's my HWT winterization routine:

1) Disconnect the cold water intake and the hot water output hoses. Use the backflow preventer to join these two hoses directly.
2) Drain the HWT using the drain valve, and let the bilge pump take care of pumping out the bilge (good test for the bilge pump - I replaced mine after last year's test)
3) Leave the drain valve open and blow air into the intake line using the dinghy pump. Keep pumping until no more water comes out. (This is important, to ensure no water is left!)
4) Empty the two water tanks and add plumbing anti freeze. Pump this through every faucet until a dark pink colour is seen on each of hot and cold settings, not forgetting the stern shower. Only need as much antifreeze as necessary to accomplish this from each of the two tanks.

This method keeps the antifreeze out of the HWT. As you have experienced, getting it back out of that tank is almost impossible.

In the spring, keep this plumbing set up until all tanks and lines are thoroughly flushed with clean water and there is no pink and no foaming. Only then reconnect the HWT and run the hot tap until all air is out and you get a normal flow of clean water.

[Ralph Masters]

Tony,
After reading your winter prep routine, I am so glad I live in beautiful San Diego and all I have to do during the winter months is put on a sweat shirt and go sailing.

Ralph
Ciao Bella

[Jack Hutteball]

Fred, do you also have a Red Dot heater on your boat that is on the starboard Side under the dinette?  If so, that is also connected in series with the hot water tank coolant heating line under the drawers in the sink cabinet on the starboard side of your boat.  I believe this was installed by the dealer on my boat and they did poor job of the installation.  The hose clamps they installed on the cut in line were so loose I had a steady coolant drip every time the engine was running.  This resulted in coolant appearing in th area you describe.  Hopefully this might also be your problem.

Jack

[Fred Koehlmann]

So we are up at the boat this weekend and I had the water pressure off, and dried the bildge, and no water dripped. Turned the pressure on overnight, so the kids could wash their hands after going to the head, and part way through the night the water pressure pump came on and would not go off. And yes the lea was back!
So the leak was in the pressurized side of the fresh water system

This morning I took out the galley cabinet doors and drawers, and opened up the area around the hot water tank. All connections were dry, BUT the base of the hot water tank was wet. So I guess I'm looking at a new hot water tank. The admiral and crew decided that we really didn't need hot water, but what a nice convince it is, so for now I need to get it out. Then we'll see if and how long it'll take to get a replacement and put it in.

So far I've closed the water loop by connecting the cold water supply line to the hot line. So I should be able to get the water flowing again. But I'm trying to figure it how to disconnect the heating line from the engine! At the tank they (Catalina) did not leave enough play room to move the tank about, and I can't get to it from under the sink. It looks like I need to cut it and have coolant run about! I could disconnect it at the engine and loop it together for now (I guess I might be replacing the hoses as well then), and then have only the coolant in the hose run into to bildges. Does anyone know if I cut it by the engine how much will flow out there?

[Stu Jackson]

Fred,

Engine Overheating 101 - How to Burp Your Engine (Reply #6)  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4518.msg26462.html#msg26462

If you do this, you'll significantly reduce the amount AF that leaks out, although gravity will be you enemy.  Get a couple of plugs ready, or a connector, and be quick.  Kinda like doing the paddlewheel knot meter!     There will be AF in the heater, too.

In the meantime, I'd use a SunShower.  Those things are great and we have used them successfully at anchor when we haven't run our engine.

[Stu Jackson]

You're not alone:  http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=143479

[Fred Koehlmann]

Well it took some time, but I finally got the tank out. Diconnecting the freshwater hoses and closing the loop there was easy, but the hose length on the coolant hoses was rediculiously tight, so I had to cut them. I first undid the hoses up at the engine, one at a time. I had plenty of paper towel available but it still wasn't quite enough. I temporarily used Seran Wrap and electrical tape to close off the ends. Once I had four open ends (two on the engine and the two hose ends) , I drain enough coolant out of one of the coolant hoses so that I could cut about 10" of it off. I cut a bit off of the other end that I had removed from the engine (it had gotten a bit chewed up), and used this as a U-shaped connector to close off the two engine ends. From Stu's above references, I'm guessing I need to do this "burping" thing.

I next cut the hoses down at the tank end. There was now way to undo the clamps. Catalina must have connected the hoses first to the tank, and then fed them through the galley wall and down and to the engine. I can't see how else they got the hoses on! The cut in the hoses did provide a tempory spray of coolant, which I most ungracefully redirected to the bilge.

Now, getting the tank out was still not easy. I'm guessing Catalina did not install them via the starboard settee, like we need to take it out from. It took some struggling to move the tank out, rotate it to starboard, and inch up the hull until the aft outboard corner cleared the settee storage opening. A bit of the fibreglas was chipped in the process, but that was better than driving it through the hull, which it felt like I was doing! The marina is closed now, so I'll find out tomorrow how soon a new tank can be acquired. For now the water loop is closed, water pressurized, and so far I see no leaking. 

I've left the coolant hoses in place for now, since I'll now be replacing them as well.

Well now that I've got everything closed in, for now, its time to hit the showers and get cleaned up.

[Stu Jackson]

Good work, Fred.  Regarding hose connections on the heaters:  on our Mark I the heater is under the galley sink.  There are two different connection options for the Seaward heaters, front or back.  Ours is on the back, which makes it the starboard side, rather than where the door is on the port side facing the nav station, which is easier to get to.  Either our PO or the installer installed a short length of hose to the heater BEFORE they put it in, which made getting the connections from the engine to the heater MUCH MUCH easier.  There are simple "butt connectors" on the hoses.  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3769.msg22547.html#msg22547

[tommyt]

If it is your hot water heater leaking water your pump would be cycling on and off as pressure drops. Leave the pump on and go to bed. If it wakes you up you have a water leak in the fresh water system. If it is coming from under the HW tank it is the tank or its connections.
If the system holds pressure you have a coolant problem somewhere. Just a way to learn more about your boat.

[tommyt]

Sorry about that. Responded to the end of the first page and did not see that you had the issue located.

[Freshwater]

I was interested to come across this discussion as I have had a similar problem. I am in my second season with the boat, a '97 MarkII, and this spring discovered water leaking into the aft bilge compartment from the plywood base under the galley sink cabinet when the system was pressurized, right at the forward corner over the bilge. I assumed there was a leak in the various hoses/connections under the sink, but could not find anything. Finally asked the yard to take a look at it, and they claim to have found a small leak in the hot water heater. So they  disconnected the cold water intake and hot water intake and joined them together in a loop so there is no water going into the hot water tank. I am still testing and am not entirely convinced that is the leak (or the only leak), but we shall see. We may or may not replace the water heater this year.

Meanwhile, here is my newbie question, this being by my first hot water heater. Is there any problem leaving the coolant hoses as they are (trying to heat a tank with no water in it, a tank that will likely never be used again). Or do we have to doing something further at this point?

[Jim Hardesty]

Before giving up on the water heater check the pressure relief valve and the drain valve.  I think more likely to be bad than the tank.
Jim