Heel Angle Question

[Jim Price]

Being new to sailing, I am still trying to understand what the "reasonable" heel angle window is for the C34.  I am on an inland lake but still get very strong winds and gusts.  Sometimes the boat feels like it is going over too far but I know that is my inexperience.  At what angle am I getting myself into real trouble.  I can always point up to bail out quickly but I don't want to be premature.  I hear about people "burying the rail" but in lake environment, that seems like a lot of freebaord to overcome and still survive.  I can understand in rolling seas how you could do that at much less angle.

So what is the opinion?  I have a clinometer that scales up to 35 degrees so what is the "panic" point?

[c34member]

A friend of mine (Bob) has an OhBob heel indicator.  As his boat heels his wife begins saying "Oh Bob."  The larger the angle louder the OhBobs.  On really gusty days it works as a position indicator too.

With an overhanging helm like the 34 has there is a slight increase in W.L. length as she heels.  IMHO 15 to 20 degrees is optimal.  Anything over 25 and you are spilling so much air and fighting such weather helm that performance suffers terribly.  That and the cat's litterbox slides out from its spot under the NAV station.

Mark the wheel at top dead center and see where that mark is when you are sailing straight.  Try to trim the sails so that mark (a turk's head knot is traditional) stays on top.  Move the traveller away from the wind and bring the genoa leads back (strong-back) to depower the sails as the wind increases.

On my Pearson 27 a heel of 35 degrees was normal  in 18 to 20 knot winds.  The 34 is much beamier for her length and "likes" to sail flatter.

[Stu Jackson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie Pearsall #1515 '00 "Delirious":
                             
Mark the wheel at top dead center and see where that mark is when you are sailing straight.  Try to trim the sails so that mark (a turk's head knot is traditional) stays on top...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim:

Charlie's right.  Flatter is better.  Also a lot easier on the equipment.  

One thing to add is that you are going to get weather helm (a good thing) as the wind builds.  Therefore, your turk's head would want to be off about 5 to 10 degrees depending on what tack you are on.  Port tack, boat wants to head up into the wind and go left, so your helm needs to be to the right (starboard for the purists).  [You will also see this happening when motoring, since the prop has starboard walk in forward, so you'll need to turn the wheel a bit to stay straight.]

Another indication of too much heel is that you slow down because you're using the rudder with the wheel WAY OVER to keep you on course and all the rudder is doing is being ONE BIG BRAKE underwater.

Past discussions and posts on the C34 website FAQs have indicated that around 18 knots of apparent wind is about time to reef the main, which is what creates the weather helm, not the jib.  Many people mistakenly roll in their jibs first and wonder why they're still are heeling.

When cruising (not racing) here on SF Bay, I have "summer" and "winter" sail sets on our boat.  The "summer" main is single reefed almost all the time from April to September.

THe C34 also has some great mainsail trimming equipment: a wide traveller, great vang (especially the solid vangs) and we added a cunningham.  With a reasonably cut mainsail for your conditions, which like everywhere undoubtedly vary greatly, you should be able to get great mainsail trim and reduce heeling until the need to reef occurs.  When in doubt, reef.

In addition, Sail Magazine has produced a few "Sail Trim" books that are very good, as have many others.  Given the flexibility of the equipment on the C34, and studying those books, should help you out quite a lot.  That should avoid the panic point and keep you in control.

Stu

[Aquakon]

Forgive me if this is too general a response to the issue.

The more control a skipper has over the individual elements that effect the operation of his vessel, the more control he has over the entire vessel.

What the hell does this have to do with heeling?  Well, if the above statement of shared control is true, so too is the inference that a reduction in individual control produces a corresponding reduction in overall control.

And that could be construed to imply that any heeling angle which adversely affects the skipper's control over any one of the boat's operational components is thereby also compromising his overall control of the vessel, and as such would be considered an undesireable angle of heel.  

Practically speaking, the C34 easily heels over dramatically as well as handsomely, while retaining its stable platform.  The only conspicuous sacrifice made by excessive heeling is, as the other posts pointed out, in performance, handling and control.  At steep heel angles, she won't reach best possible speed, will, as pointed out, continusouly fight to round up, and as mentioned, will relegate the rudder to the job of water brake.

But I don't believe there are any inherent dangers (design wise) to such a sailing attitude except the loss of boat control, a condition which you might suspect could lead to trouble.

On the other hand, trimming the jib when she's well heeled will at least scare the agnostic out of you, and at worst convince you to trade the damned thing in for a waverunner.

For reference, MY "panic point" is that spot just before the mast hits the water.

Regarding rolling waves, you might want to scan through a book entitled The Oceanography of Seamanship (don't buy it unless you're filthy rich).  The wealth of information within will, if nothing else, give you a sense of how boats respond to the dynamics of waves, and specifically just how seaworthy vessels such as the C34 really are.

Regarding furling the jib as a form of reefing:

I thought I read it here, years back, that the reason a partially furled jib doesn't act like a reefed jib is because the shape created by a partial furl is rather inefficient; somewhat inefficient in general, terribly so for reefing purposes.

And finally, a comment on Stu's reefing practices:
Reefed through the summer?? Sure, if you're a wimp.  And I don't mean to imply that Stu's a wimp…I mean, clearly he IS, but perhaps this isn't the place to start such an interesting thread.  Come on, Stu!  Shake those sails out!  Live a little!  Don't be afraid of the speed.  I'm sure I've  read right here on the message board that the C34 is capable of speeds greater than 3 kts, Stu!  You can do it!  Say Hi to The Admiral & The Morgan.

Rumours of my Death Persist

[Jim Price]

Thanks for the replys.  I feel much better about what I am doing now.  Also talked to a couple of local Catalina owners (smaller boats) and they had same advice.  Flatter is better.

[Jkar]

Jim,

She will take a lot.  As the other have all had good points, "keep it flat, reef..." the only time I was ever second guessing the seaworthiness of the boat was during a race with the cute up in about 15true abeam, she rolled, the back of the boom dragged for about five seconds, she stalled we popped the main, she rigted in half a heart beat and we re-trimmed and were off again.  Only word of caution, make sure everything is stowed secure below before investigating how far you want to push it.  Find that point and make it yours.