bad starter?

[ghebbns]

Hi all,
Had a situation yesterday that I would appreciate your thoughts/opinions.

The boat was at the mooring so I went out to bring it to our dock.  Started no problem.  Later in the day, I took my son and his friends for a sail.  Again, no problems starting.  Upon return to our cove, I tried to start the engine and it was a no go.  Sounded like low batteries - not enough juice to turn it over.  This was strange as I only had the radio and GPS on for about an hour.  I tested the batteries and they were fine.  Tried several times, but no luck.  Fortunately we had a northerly wind (not typical) and I was able to sail to the dock.  We arrived safely (thanks to the help of a neighbors) but that is another story :) .

I tried a few more times with no luck.  Even though the batteries were fully charged, just not enough juice to turn it over.  At this point I thought it might be a bad starter and I would contact a mechanic after the long weekend.

Fast forward to this morning.  Just for the Hell of it, I tried again and it started first try.  No hesitation whatsoever.  This made me think it might be a connection issue.  While the engine was running, I tested the batteries and one had a good charge from the alternator and the other a low charge.  I cut the engine and cleaned all the battery connections.  They were a little "gummy".  I also cleaned the engine block ground (although it seemed fine).  After reconnecting everything, I started the engine (again no problem) and tested the batteries.  This time they both were showing good charge from alternator.

So my question is, can a bad starter be intermittent? Is it most likely that I had dirty connections and should be fine now?  It is a 1990 C34 with a Universal 25xp.  Anything else you can think I should check before I get a mechanice?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Craig Illman]

There can be a dead spot in the starter solenoid, I had one back in the day on my '63 Chevrolet. Very inconvenient when the ferry lands and you're ready to unload. I'd also look at the engine ground lug's connection to the wiring. If it's still original equipment, I'd suggest upgrading the factory 4 gauge to 2 gauge and solder the lugs if you can.

Craig

[scgunner]

ghebbns,

Sounds like batteries to me. How old are your batteries? When you tested them did that include a load test? When started this morning was it hooked to dockside power? Starters are pretty simple, if they get juice they crank, if they don't get enough juice they crank slowly or not at all. It's unlikely a starter ground problem since the starter is bolted to the engine block (a great ground).

[KWKloeber]

1) can a bad starter be intermittent?
2) Is it most likely that I had dirty connections and should be fine now? 
3) It is a 1990 C34 with a Universal 25xp.  Anything else you can think I should check before I get a mechanice?

4) Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

EDITED

1  Yes. 
But in differing ways. Could be an issue like a weak pull-in coil or burned contacts on the switch. Could be bad brushes or a bad spot on the (I think Craig means) commutator.  Those happen but are less likely than other causes (Ockham's Razor.)

2. Yes.
But don't take that reason to the bank unless you do troubleshooting to rule out other causes.  Cleaning terminals was good but because there was no meaningful troubleshooting beforehand now you don't know 100% if that was THE cause or one of the other cause.  I'm not necessarily saying it was the wrong thing to do to get you on the road, but just stating a fact.  I call it whack-a-mole about repairs (let's try this, let's try that; never sure — as you are not now — whether the root cause was found/corrected or are there other contributing causes.)  On a boat where out of sight is out of mind, multiple contributing causes can be typical.

3. Yes.
There can be a dozen reasons for no-starts.

***
What are you going to have a mechanic do if you don't currently have a repeatable problem?  Unless you have a great one (unusual) they are good at fixing and replacing but crappy at troubleshooting. In that situation they play whack-a-mole (with your checkbook!!)  Or they tell you (or more likely you pay them) to do what you can do yourself for troubleshooting/maintenance steps — that's ok if one can't/doesn't want to do it themself.
***

4a.
You haven't told us anything about your boat - batteries, panel switches, panel gauges, wiring harness, gummy bear plugs, wiring mods or upgrades OR is everything OEM.  How did you "test" the batteries. Did you check Alt output. If you cleaned and put the cable back on the bell housing, no, that's not "a great ground" that's not where it belongs.  Is your Alt grounded and fully charging. 

4b.
You can troubleshoot (with a decent multimeter, extra set of hands, and a set of long test leads) anything that a mechanic can do  - if you're comfy doing it.  And you can replace or repair anything wrong about electrical non-starts that a mechanic can, if you are comfy doing it. 

4c.
Read the 101 Electrical sticky post.  See the link below; read my Harness 101 and S-Wire articles. Report back what you have for wiring, etc. and it will give more info to help us point you toward the possible cause(s.)
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/wiki

[Jim Hardesty]

see my reply to another post
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11527.msg93088.html#msg93088
Jim

[Jim Hardesty]

Saw this on utube.  Today is a rain day.  I didn't watch it all.  But I do like their other videos.  If you never have fixed a starter I think it's worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NOUs5DUszI&list=PLsT7_jPsZM5pFpq8RX0oxjibknM2Gz361&index=7

Off the subject but I liked their other video of 5 knots.  The alpine butterfly was great.  Still trying to get my head around her second way to tie a bowline.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvh_LWBaomg

Jim

p.s.
I did watch it all.  Was impressed that starter was fixed in the cockpit of a sailboat at anchor with tools most of us have onboard. Real life cruising.

[waughoo]

If the batteries are wired in parallel with the positive coming off one battery and the negative coming of the other, a poor battery connection or a low/dead cell in one of the batteries can lower the potential of the whole bank even if one of them is good.  Not sure this is your situation, but something to consider.

[Ron Hill]

ghe : You need to check that 30Amp inline starter fuse holder. You just might have a corroded end.  This has been written up MANY times - Suggest that you change the in line fuse holder to a "stab -in fuse + new holder"

A thought

[KWKloeber]

If you never have fixed a starter I think it's worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NOUs5DUszI&list=PLsT7_jPsZM5pFpq8RX0oxjibknM2Gz361&index=7

Pretty cool vid -- I hadn't seen his channel before.  He's got a WIDE range of topics!!
It took me back 60 years when my grandfather showed me how to clean up a commutator and I used a hacksaw as he said.
I do have one bone to pick with it though (well two) -- you want to finish not with "fine" sandpaper but with SUPER fine -- like 1000 grit wet n dry.  Remove any sanding roughness on the armature otherwise it can tear up the carbon brushes.  You want to POLISH it so there's nothing left from the initial sanding.  Another thing I did was use a very small triangular jeweler's file to put a very slight bevel on the edge of each copper pad of the commutator -- sanding can leave a sharp leading edge the pads and you want the brushes to slide from one to the next pad with no ridge there.

The other bone is -- He said the drive gear is a Bendix -- that starter (and ours) have an "overriding clutch" not a Bendix.  The difference is that a Bendix uses the torque of the starter armature to advance the gear into the flywheel, and when the flywheel turns faster than the armature it spins the Bendix backward, away from the flywheel.  An overriding clutch acts like a winch -- it locks in one direction and spins freely in the other.  A pivoting yoke activated by the solenoid throws the clutch and gear into and turns the flywheel.  When the engine starts and turns faster than the starter. the clutch lets the gear just spin freely on the armature.  Unlike a Bendix, the gear remains engaged until the starter switch is released.
Remember on old autos when the Bendix got sticky and the starter would just whine (very fast) and not engage the flywheel?  That's when you got out the hammer!!  The overriding clutch gear eliminates that (well, nearly all the time.)

[Ron Hill]

ghb : To check your starter to see if it is operating here is what i've done.:  I took a long shank screwdriver with an insolated handle (wood or plastic) and layed it on the starter solenoid threaded stud.  Then I touched the block with the screwdrivers tip.  You should hear the starter try to kick over. 

A thought