Vertical Keel Crack

waughoo · January 21, 2021, 08:09:30 AM

With a hard grounding, I'd say keel removal and rebed is probably the minimal amount of work I'd consider. Once the keel is off, you'll know a lot more about what needs to be done.

Sundance · January 21, 2021, 09:18:36 AM

As noted before, I was the previous owner and yes, hard grounding. There is cracking in the stringers aft potion of the keel area.

Noah · January 21, 2021, 09:51:47 AM

Ouch! That WILL change the repair calculation...from cosmetic to structural remediation. Definitely warrants some serious exploration. Good luck.

Ron Hill · January 21, 2021, 02:47:58 PM

Pat : Hard Grounding is putting it mildly!! I'm afraid that the ONLY way to start that repair is to drop the keel, repair the cracked stringers, thoroughly inspect hull stub, stringers, all bolts & their entry into the keel hull stub. There is major structural damage. Repair and then reattach the keel!

I wouldn't even think of any other shortcut!!

My thoughts

Stu Jackson · January 21, 2021, 03:58:29 PM

Don't know (didn't check) to see if this 101 Topic is in the wiki bunch that Ken Kloeber posted on page one of this thread:

Rebedding a Keel Stub 101 The Catalina Smile with Pictures

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6842.0.html

Noah's Catalina file is also valuable.

KWKloeber · January 21, 2021, 05:34:40 PM

Stu

No these were just my pics that Pat asked me for.

-k

scgunner · January 22, 2021, 06:54:10 AM

Pat,

I've never seen a vertical crack like that before, it's disturbing to say the least. If it was my boat I'd drop the keel and have a qualified surveyor do a through inspection before doing anything else. That will at least give you a plan of action and probably some piece of mind too.

Ron Hill · January 22, 2021, 01:54:14 PM

Kevin is correct, but you don't need just any surveyor - you need a Structural Marine Engineer!

A thought

KWKloeber · January 22, 2021, 10:05:06 PM

[quote author]
you almost need a Structural Marine Engineer!

[/quote]

I disagree. Not almost, You DO need a qualified engineer or very experienced structural repair person.

Surveyors are like bad engineers - take on jobs not qualified for, and the the report reads: "hire a qualified person to....."

I had a 36-footer with "severe-looking" teak bulkhead water damage (due to a deck leak) that I was brokering for a deceased friend. I explained the situation to a local broker, and was clear that I needed it evaluated so a buyer knew if it was, or was not, just cosmetic. He said, "Sure, I understand." I even said I'd remove anything or drill any discrete holes if he needed.

The survey came back, "Have a qualified person evaluate the water damage (And I'll take my fee and run)".). It even came back with "have a qualified tech evaluate the refrigeration." It was an 80% humidity day and he left the top open during the whole survey. Duh, yes dummy the plate will frost up when you leave the top open for 3 hours.

Most surveyors I've run across are low on the food chain. They're just inventory takers, and some not so good at that.
Don't waste your time even thinking about a surveyor looking at the stringer damage.

Odd though, from the pic the keel bottom/leading edge doesn't appear to be heavily damaged.

waughoo · January 23, 2021, 11:45:24 AM

Quote from: KWKloeber on January 22, 2021, 10:05:06 PM
[quote author]
Most surveyors I've run across are low on the food chain. They're just inventory takers, and some not so good at that.

I have this same bias. Where I bought my boat there were very few sailboats and thus very few surveyors knew anything about them. I knew i needed a survey for insurance so i paid for one there. It was cheaper than where i live to get a survey done so i looked at it as just a cost saving measure and self surveyed the boat while i was there to review it.

I too suggest a qualified yard repair technician for this project. It will be to your advantage to make sure you underatand what you are getting into.

glennd3 · January 24, 2021, 04:45:28 AM

What exactly is a hard grounding? Story please.

Quote from: Sundance on January 21, 2021, 09:18:36 AM
As noted before, I was the previous owner and yes, hard grounding. There is cracking in the stringers aft potion of the keel area.

scgunner · January 24, 2021, 07:29:54 AM

So the boat in question is "Sundance"? Looking at the picture it looks like the boat came down on the ground rather than bumping into it, when my boat was grounded it bumped into the rocks which left a gouge in the keel about a third of the way down, fortunately the damage was just cosmetic. How fast was the boat going when it grounded? That would be an indicator of how bad the damage might be. When my boat struck the rocks it was ghosting along at a knot or less, it was refloated in minutes. How long the boat was grounded would be another important indicator. Putting these pieces together will provide a clearer picture of the damage and what needs to be done.

Indian Falls · January 24, 2021, 08:13:30 AM

I can only recommend separation of the keel from the keel stub. Any of the other fixes like mashing sealant into a crack from the outside or trying to seal the keel bolts from the top don't work for long.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6842.0.html

It's been 9 years since I dropped my keel and it hasn't leaked or changed outward appearance in any way.
Also do not recommend complete removal. Leave the nuts at the top of the keel bolts and lift it up. Trying to get all 9 of those back into holes on two very heavy items seems like a real challenge. And there's no reason to do that for this repair. Best of luck!

KWKloeber · January 24, 2021, 11:49:45 AM

Glenn

If you need to ask I'll guarantee that you haven't Knot Yet had one.

Here's mine:
Grounding; touching anything (from mud to sand to rock) that's not meant to be!

Hard aground; stuck and can't get off w/o some form of assistance.

Hard grounding; hitting anything hard with enough velocity (including vertical) that it causes some damage (min a lead bang, to more damage like the hull.)
One could have a hard grounding whether or not the boat remains hard aground afterward. Or one could be hard aground on bedrock surface with no damage, but swells roll in that cause a hard grounding.

Others' mileage may vary.

KWKloeber · January 24, 2021, 08:28:28 PM

Dan

>>> Trying to get all 9 of those back into holes on two very heavy items seems like a real challenge. <<<

Did you have hard polyester that needed to be ground off?
What I had left must have been more daunting. I'm not sure how I could have gotten to all of the two surfaces to completely grind off all the bedding without having the amount of clearance that I did.

Of course I had two fewer bolts but it was a cake walk dropping the hull back on - the absolute least of the whole job. The number actually isn't important because if say three are lined up then 7 or 9 or 15 will be lined up. I'm sure it was much easier how I lifted/lowered her, opposed to a travel lift doing it; there was no option except the hull to go back down exactly to where it had been lifted. And the key about placement was having blocks (2x4, not ones with sheaves!) on the side and fore/aft of the keel frame so that the keel had only ONE location that it could fit back into (the original location.)

Jacking the keel sideways into place was actually also a cake walk, the 2nd least part of the job. I wouldn't want to imagine it with the yard at that time but other lift operators I've seen since then are quite nimble.