C34 Pointing

[Kyle Ewing]

On a recent trip from Chicago to Milwaukee I got to spend a lot of time figuring out how to point my boat higher--north winds to Milwaukee and south winds back to Chicago.  The best I could do was 30-40 degrees apparent wind angle (measured by the windex) and 100-110 degree tacking angle (measured by the compass and chartplotter track).  Boat speed was fine, 5-7 knots with acceptable heel, no more than 20 degrees.  Wind on the trip (my estimate) ranged from less than 10 knots to over 20 knots.  

Donnybrook, a 1990 tall rig/fin keel, has a 150% genoa one and a half seasons old and the original main.  The genoa was trimmed to the spreader tips with all telltales flowing straight and breaking evenly.  I had only slight back draft on the main.  I played with the backstay and track position (inside track) until I found the best feel.  I reefed as necessary to keep the boat flat.  I took several pictures of the sails to share with my sailmaker to see what he thinks--I'll post some here later to get your opinion.

My question is how well can you get your boat to point?  Is it significantly better than what I can do?  I'd like a target for how much more tuning I should do before I start to blame the main sail, and how much the old main is hurting me.

Thanks for your help.

Kyle Ewing
Donnybrook #1010
Belmont Harbor, Chicago

[Stu Jackson]

Kyle

I share your experience.  Our main is OEM that had full battens and a Harken Batt Car system added by the PO.  It is NOT a Catalina sail, but a local loft here in SF called Leading Edge.  Good stuff.  I recently had the mainsail cleaned at Sail Care and they did a great job - the main looks like new, except...

Nothing can get the bag out of an old main, and nothing can affect your pointing more than a flat mainsail. It's that simple, based on my experience on other people's boats and watching the true racers here in SF walk right by me! We've had some good experiences, too, racing, but the other guys outpoint me by quite a bit.  Your tacking #s are what I experience.  I obtained that from our autopilot readout.

If your rig is tuned, there's not much else you can do, other than to bite the bullet on a new, flat main.  Of course, your sailing conditions and local loft experiences will tell you about how to build your new sail based on what and how you plan to sail your boat, like a foot shelf, foot reef points, cunningham, etc.

We have a PO'd 1988 110 jib.  It, too, is Leading Edge.  It's seen better days, but can trim pretty flat.  The bag in the mainsail always backwinds about halfway up.  It's much flatter when reefed, which we do here a lot, but not when racing (rarely).  The racers almost all sail with 130s, the largest allowed by the local fleet racing rules.  I don't experience the backwinding on the main when I use our 85% blade, but I haven't had that up for a few years since I've been racing during the summer.

[John Langford]

Very helpful exchange. I think I am having much the same experience in similar conditions with an 8 year old main. The 130% sets up perfectly when I am hard on the wind but to keep speed up I have to let the main flutter a fair amount even at wind speed below 15 knots. Is that what you both mean by backdraft and is that the result of the main being too full? Is a flatter main the only antidote?

I sail with buddies with a C+C99 and a C+C32. I am as fast, but they are closer winded. All other things being equal (rig tuned properly, etc) would a flatter main maintain the speed and improve my pointing?

[Ron Hill]

Kyle : I can't give you the degrees, but between my new 150%, the BB movable cars, rigid vang and the backstay adjuster - I'm happy.
The 150 is a laminate in a bi radial cut.  The full batten main is 7.5 dacron.  I think the movable cars, rigid vang and the backstay adjuster make the most noticeable improvement.

I have a wing, so I'll never point like your fin keel.   Ron

[dave davis]

If you have an old main that is blown out and is too full, that might be the problem. If you flatten the main, you will have less back winding. Don't pull your traveler to weather to reduce the the back winding, it will only make you go slower. A little back winding is not that harmful.
Recommend you go to your sail maker and have him press in a grommet at the clew end about 8 inches above the the boom. Ask him to show you how to use this Flattener and how to install an external floating block and a cleat. I could tell you about how to use it, but your Sailmaker should be willing yo show you first hand. Use the flattener in conjunction with you Cunningham, it should work much better. Do not lower the main halyard. If you have the crew, use your biggest crew to push up the boom while the deck person is hauling in the flattener. Remember, this is just one of the many reasons a boat will not point as high as you would like.
Good Luck, Dave

[John Langford]

Thanks Dave. Your advice re flattening an older main to improve pointing is much appreciated. The formula is a bit daunting for a single hander with no extra muscle on board (and, as yet, not even a cunningham never mind a flattener) but I get the idea. Would it be a viable option to just get the sail cut and reshaped at the foot to create the effect of using a cunningham and flattener?

[Ken Juul]

Outhaul also effects the amount/position of the draft.  Several articles in the mainsheet and previous posts about improving the effectivness of the outhaul system.

[terry]

We have a 1990 wing keel standard rig and I can't point better than 100 - 110 degrees tacking angle.  We use a 150 genoa and the sails are most likely original (I've owned for past 6 years).

[Joe Nalley]

Just replaced the original mainsail on Allegro #415 and the improvement is fantastic! Kappa Sails in Westbrook, CT built the sail and has a fine reputation as a sail maker for blue water sailor's in CT and RI.

[Miles Henderson]

Kyle,

I recently read your article about your difficulty pointing.  I have been encountering similar problems with my C34 that I bought last year.  Did you ever purchase a new main?  If so, did it make a significant difference in your ability to point upwind.  You said before that the best you could do was a track of 100 degrees.  How much did the new sail improve your pointing?

Thanks,
Miles Henderson

[Jeff Kaplan]

kyle, figured i'd add my 2 cents worth.  #219, 1986, tall rig, shallow draft. just finishing 3rd full year. new doyle main sail 1st season, 135% north sails head sail on schaffer 2100 series furler, new '01 by po, and brand new garhauer  mt-ub-2 traveler this season, tuned rigging, no backstay adj. in 15-20kt winds, close-hauled i can get as close to 30^ as possible and hold it. new main and traveler make this possible. and if i might add, this traveler is one of the best upgrades and biggest performance improvers i have ever experienced. start with a new main...jeff

[rirvine]

Also see:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=3879.0

[Kyle Ewing]

Miles,

No, I haven't yet purchased a new main.  After learning what is normal I worked with sail trim, especially halyard tension and cunningham on the main, and improved tacking angle to closer to 95%.  I found I didn't have the main halyard as tight as it should--lifting the boom slightly higher than parallel to the water helps when raising the sail since you're not trying to lift the boom as well.  I'm happier with performance now but realize a new main will help.

Kyle