Join the C34 Association Today!
[C34 Home] [C34Tech Notes] [C34 Tech Wiki] [Join!]
Please login or register.
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump  (Read 688 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Breakin Away

  • Forum - Petty Officer 1st Class
  • *****
  • Karma: 3
  • Posts: 330
    • View Profile
Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump
« on: May 22, 2018, 09:28:47 PM »

I just learned of this pump. Looks like it addresses some of the (very few) issues with the Oberdorfer N202 pumps:

https://moyermarine.com/product/mmi-502-flange-pump-csob_00_365/


I searched all over this website for any mentions of this pump, and see nothing (aside from some replacement parts that Moyer sells for the Oberdorfer pumps). Is this pump a new offering? Does the flange look like it would fit on the B-series motors?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 09:31:12 PM by Breakin Away »
Logged

2001 MkII Breakin' Away, #1535, TR/WK, M35BC, Mantus 35# (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

KWKloeber

  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 32
  • Posts: 3382
  • "Positive Impact" 1984 C-30 #3573 trbsfk M-25
    • View Profile
Re: Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2018, 01:00:22 AM »

Break one-nine.

NO

That absolutely WILL NOT fit the B series engine pump land (which is actually an hourmeter drive for Kb tractor, heavy equipment and induatrial engines.)

That Moyer pump is the form factor of the Ob 202-07 and -03 pumps.  The Atomic-4 was originally sea water cooled using that pump, and has since been converted to a closed cooling system. 

Note that Don Moyer is a real class act, "his" MMI pumps have sealed ball-bearing (not carbon) shaft bearings.

As an aside, the -07 and -03 pumps were installed OEM on some M-25s (as it was on my '84) when Universal couldn't buy enough round or 'square' base pumps to meet the heyday demand. They required an adapter plate and shaft adapter that Universal manufactured/installed on the M25s. See my article
http://tinyurl.com/y7bjbuun
(I still have my museum peice antique adapters in my parts bin.)

Now, what are you seeking or what specific issue are you trying to solve/work around, and maybe I can assist?

-k

Logged
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Paulus

  • Forum - Chief Petty Officer
  • ******
  • Karma: 4
  • Posts: 526
    • View Profile
Re: Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2018, 03:12:24 AM »

Ken,
Why don't you create a site like MaineSail.  This would be very convenient for the rest of us looking for parts, etc.  This would be a helpful addition to our web site.
Thanks,
Paul
Logged
Cool Change 1989 #944

Breakin Away

  • Forum - Petty Officer 1st Class
  • *****
  • Karma: 3
  • Posts: 330
    • View Profile
Re: Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2018, 05:27:33 AM »

Now, what are you seeking or what specific issue are you trying to solve/work around, and maybe I can assist?

-k
Hi Ken, thanks for the clarification.

As you're aware we've had some private discussions about pumps. I have no immediate interest in this pump, but a longer term interest in better options than Sherwood. This pump was recommended by a friend of mine who heard that I was considering getting an Oberdorfer from you. He responded by suggesting that I consider this pump instead of the Oberdorfer. I immediately searched this website, and finding no mention of it, I posted my question.

Note this text from Don Moyer's website. It seems to claim broader compatibility than you are mentioning. I have no doubt that you are right, but if someone knows Don maybe you should let him know:

Quote
The inlet and outlet on this pump are 3/8″ pipe thread, and it is otherwise interchangeable with the early gear type pumps, as well as any of the later OEM flexible impeller pumps used by Universal.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 07:37:21 AM by Breakin Away »
Logged

2001 MkII Breakin' Away, #1535, TR/WK, M35BC, Mantus 35# (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

KWKloeber

  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 32
  • Posts: 3382
  • "Positive Impact" 1984 C-30 #3573 trbsfk M-25
    • View Profile
Re: Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2018, 08:35:09 AM »

Quote

Note this text from Don Moyer's website. It seems to claim broader compatibility than you are mentioning. I have no doubt that you are right, but if someone knows Don maybe you should let him know:

The inlet and outlet on this pump are 3/8″ pipe thread, and it is otherwise interchangeable with the early gear type pumps, as well as any of the later OEM flexible impeller pumps used by Universal.

Don's text is 100% correct.  MMI is a forum and store for the Atomic-4.  If you're looking at a part there, it fits onto an Atomic 4, and is not for a diesel or is a generic part for any Catalina or Pearson that has an aux engine.   Probably one of, if not THE last thing he needs is someone (like me) who is not an A-4 owner critiquing his website store.   :rolling   It's an age-old problem of "dock jockey experts" and "buddies" not having a clue what misinformation they spew forth and sucker owners into buying this or that (which they say will solve their problem, that they themselves have never experienced or solved.) Those types love to tell owners how to spend their own money because they don't have skin in the game.

-k
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 08:36:51 AM by KWKloeber »
Logged
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

KWKloeber

  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 32
  • Posts: 3382
  • "Positive Impact" 1984 C-30 #3573 trbsfk M-25
    • View Profile
Re: Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2018, 12:46:30 PM »

You said
Quote

this pump.... Looks like it addresses some of the (very few) issues with the Oberdorfer N202 pumps


I don't know of an issue with N202 pumps that needs addressing?  Specifically which issues would it solve, (say, if it did actually fit a 35B or XPB)?
If a square peg doesn't fit a round hoe, it ain't an issue with the peg -- it's the application.

And,
Quote

a longer term interest in better options than Sherwood.


You already have the options:

A drop-in replacement at $443 list + discount) and do the 60-second mod on the hose elbows.
A -16 pump at $305 list + discount, and do a 60-minute mod to the base.  Keep the change for your pocket.

or more immediately:
A Westerbeke pump p/n 42175, made by Sherwood, at $534.  Any Wb dealer will (except me, I won't) sell you a crap pump that shouldn't be on a marine engine.
Install an overhaul kit for your pump yourself to fix the leaking.
Have your pump overhauled.

If you have a different size inlet hose (I seriously doubt that, but a pic of the leaking pump would be the grand reveal) install a different elbow on the Ob.  I sent a pic fitted for a 3/4" inlet hose.  It ain't elegant, but works just fine, and is marginally better getting more water TO the pump (plus the elbow can be double clamped, and it isn't cast brass that shouldn't be used on sea water anyway.) See why I don't care to reward Westerbeke's bad behavior?

-k
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 12:48:26 PM by KWKloeber »
Logged
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

KWKloeber

  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 32
  • Posts: 3382
  • "Positive Impact" 1984 C-30 #3573 trbsfk M-25
    • View Profile
Re: Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2018, 12:59:41 PM »

Ken,
Why don't you create a site like MaineSail.  This would be very convenient for the rest of us looking for parts, etc.  This would be a helpful addition to our web site.
Thanks,
Paul

HA!  Rod and I have had a side conversation about how he's just about ready to pull the trigger and retire off the millions he makes from web sales (compared to the millions of hours he spends on the site and advising folks who buy locally or cheaper on the iNet anyway.)
Then it would be like a real job instead of fun.  Anyone who needs help is a simple email/forum click away.  Besides, then I wouldn't need to hair-ass this gang anymore :rolling

A C-30 guy said I should start my own C-30 forum/wiki and he'd buy the zincs he needs.  Ya, at 30 cents profit, let's see that's .... how many years ...?

Logged
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Breakin Away

  • Forum - Petty Officer 1st Class
  • *****
  • Karma: 3
  • Posts: 330
    • View Profile
Re: Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2018, 07:14:10 PM »

Quote

Note this text from Don Moyer's website. It seems to claim broader compatibility than you are mentioning. I have no doubt that you are right, but if someone knows Don maybe you should let him know:

The inlet and outlet on this pump are 3/8″ pipe thread, and it is otherwise interchangeable with the early gear type pumps, as well as any of the later OEM flexible impeller pumps used by Universal.

Don's text is 100% correct.  MMI is a forum and store for the Atomic-4.  If you're looking at a part there, it fits onto an Atomic 4, and is not for a diesel or is a generic part for any Catalina or Pearson that has an aux engine.   Probably one of, if not THE last thing he needs is someone (like me) who is not an A-4 owner critiquing his website store.   :rolling

I went directly to the link for the Moyer pump without looking at the rest of the website, so I didn't know his website was exclusive to Atomic motors. Without that knowledge, his statement that it's interchangeable with "any of the later OEM flexible impeller pumps used by Universal" appeared to include my boat's pump. Thank you for the clarification.


It's an age-old problem of "dock jockey experts" and "buddies" not having a clue what misinformation they spew forth and sucker owners into buying this or that (which they say will solve their problem, that they themselves have never experienced or solved.) Those types love to tell owners how to spend their own money because they don't have skin in the game.

You're taking a shot at both my friend and me. Am I supposed to ignore the suggestions of everyone and only trust the "completely unified opinions" (yeah, sure) of this website? Instead, I brought his his suggestion to the best place I know to ask. I think that's what most people here would want me to do.

You said
Quote

this pump.... Looks like it addresses some of the (very few) issues with the Oberdorfer N202 pumps


I don't know of an issue with N202 pumps that needs addressing?  Specifically which issues would it solve, (say, if it did actually fit a 35B or XPB)?

From the picture I thought that he might have modified the flange to fit over the two holes on my motor, so that the clips would not be needed, and cutting the flange would be unnecessary. He also mentioned packless bearings and captive thumb screws. And his price is pretty good. But it's irrelevant if the pump is guaranteed not to fit.

I decided to order another Sherwood pump at this time. My situation is unique, because I am 1000 miles from my boat and returning Friday for a week at home (which is still 2 hours from my boat). My current job requires me to be out of town 50% of the time, which severely constrains my sailing time (and my time to work on the boat). As I explained to you, I really want a drop-in replacement so I don't lose a whole week of sailing (which will turn into 2-3 weeks with my travel requirements) fiddling with things at a remote location. That means a rebuild is not an option right now (I'll rebuild the old pump once I get it out). I truly believe that my inlet barb measured 7/8" when I was last at the boat, and is too bulky to file down and fit on the N202. I did not take a picture because I did not realize at the time that it was unusual. And maybe I am wrong, but with the boat 1000 miles away I'd have to give up a bunch of sailing time just to answer the question. So the new Sherwood pump will be there when I return home and I'll hopefully just be able to pop it in.

Frankly, I am also a little concerned about the few reports of steam in the exhaust of people who sail in warm water. The upper Chesapeake gets up to 86-90 in the summer. All those guys with M-25 motors who have upgraded to 3" HXs are certainly fine with the Ob pump's water capacity (especially if they're sailing in the chilly waters of PNW). But I find it a little ironic that a 2" HX upgrade is so critical for them to have, yet a reduced raw water throughput is accepted without question. They're probably fine with smaller motor/upgraded HX/cooler sailing waters, but I'm concerned that warm water sailors with M-35 motors might be a little close to the edge. And it's not a problem that can be solved by just running the motor at lower RPMs because that further reduces the pumping capacity. I called Depco for a second opinion, and they told me that they do not recommend the N202 for anything over 30 hp. I may still run the experiment with a Ob pump someday (it's worth a few boat bucks to potentially save my camshaft), but only when I have time to modify the M-16 myself, and only after I've taken some baseline temperature readings on my injector elbow, aqua-lift muffler, and exhaust hose from the muffler. It's clear that the motors cool fine with reduced water, but a lot of the heat goes out the exhaust manifold with the combustion gases, so it seems that's where a lack of cooling water would likely show up.

I'm not suggesting that anyone follow my practice. Each situation is different.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 07:26:59 PM by Breakin Away »
Logged

2001 MkII Breakin' Away, #1535, TR/WK, M35BC, Mantus 35# (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

KWKloeber

  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 32
  • Posts: 3382
  • "Positive Impact" 1984 C-30 #3573 trbsfk M-25
    • View Profile
Re: Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2018, 08:10:36 PM »

It will be interesting to see a pic and if there is a larger supply hose, "Why"? 
I'm not positive that two 7/8" Westerbeke elbows would pass by ...."Maybe."  I have a Sherwood pump, but not two 7/8 elbows to try them.

But as I explained, if you have a larger hose, that's not a limitation of the 202N pump, nor would it affect your install (of either the -908 or -16 options.)   I would just use the larger inlet elbow (as I showed in my pics that we did on the M-25xpb install.)

So, the L-clip mount is really the beef about the Ob "drop-in" replacement.  That's Westerbeke for you.  They could just as well have had Ob provide a bolt-on-pump, but then Wb wouldn't own the pump, as it does with (what was previously called) the G-908 (which can no longer be purchased from Sherwood.)

As I also said, Randy in NOL has the Ob pump and no issues with steam etc.   I suspect that, if you used the 3/4" hose setup I showed, you or Mick wouldn't either.  Just an educated guess tho.

I guess it's maybe time to buy a couple N202M-16s and pre-mod the bases?  I really didn't want to do that unless I could use the pumps with unmachined flanges.

Oh, yes MMI pumps have the captive thumb screws.  But Don also sells a cover (or used to) that fits the Ob pumps and has thumbscrews.  Or can buy the thumbscrews separately.  Those, along with deep-sixing the cir-clip as I put in my article, makes for a very quick turnaround if an impeller fails.

I was talking generically about dock jockeys, not specific.  You sure are diligent enough to ask the questions and understand the issues. 
How many times do we I hear, "But I bought and used that "X" (insert here: switch, caulking, tool, screw, circuit breaker, whatever) because the guy on my dock (who by the way doesn't own a Catalina) told me "Y" (insert here: any myriad of uninformed, spewed-forth misinformation, and "suggestions".)  I call those getting a "buddy job."

-k
Logged
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Paulus

  • Forum - Chief Petty Officer
  • ******
  • Karma: 4
  • Posts: 526
    • View Profile
Re: Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2018, 05:13:32 AM »

A C-30 guy said I should start my own C-30 forum/wiki and he'd buy the zincs he needs.  Ya, at 30 cents profit, let's see that's .... how many years ...?

If you save the pennies, the dollars will follow. :D
Logged
Cool Change 1989 #944

AT Phillips

  • Forum - Seaman Apprentice
  • *
  • Karma: 0
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2018, 07:11:55 PM »

Ken,

I (& many others) really appreciate your contributions to this site.  The advice & experience you & the other sailors who actually do the work; saves sailors like me countless hours.  Thanks Dude!!  v/r Adam
Logged
Adam Phillips
1991 Catalina C34
"Rising Sun" Hull #1115, M-35
Chesapeake Bay

KWKloeber

  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 32
  • Posts: 3382
  • "Positive Impact" 1984 C-30 #3573 trbsfk M-25
    • View Profile
Re: Upgrade for Sherwood raw water pump
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2018, 09:51:01 AM »

Thanks dude. What’s most interesting is when a curveball pitch is thrown and we all can learn something new or how to attack a problem from another angle. :D
 
-k
Logged
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain
Pages: [1]   Go Up