Stage 1 - 100 Amp Alternator using InCharge 3 Stage External Regulator

[britinusa]

Replacing the Alternator on Eximius, purchased 100Amp Alt from Mainesail (thanks Rod)

Here's my wiring concept - just passing by you critics for your valued response before I disconnect the old Blamar 

(I don't show the Fuses, Shunts, etc.)

Paul

[KWKloeber]

Paul

Although not shown, presume there's proper fusing.
The white terminal is a/c tap. The others?

Note that it's totally redundant when CTY ran a fuel pump feed and alt field excite wires (from key switch) to the engine compartment. The last three harnesses I did simplify that -- one for both. That's the "new" way Wb does it on the b series engines.

kk

[britinusa]

Ken, that's the way (as you quoted) that my harness is setup. This was more of a schematic.

Alternator terminals
.. Blue    - Internal Sensor
.. Green  - Ignition
.. Yellow - Ignition Lamp (not used)
.. White  - Tach (stator pulse)


The Plus of this Alternator setup is that if the external regulator dies, I only need to disconnect it at the regulator and attach a jumper between the F and R terminals to activate the Internal Regulator.

Paul

[mainesail]

The green wire is connected to the ignition switch as emergency back-up for the internal regulator. Should the external regulator fail simply install the brass strap across the F & R terminals and the internal regulator will now run the alternator. Alternatively an on/off switch can be installed across F & R and left OPEN/OFF indefinitely. Should the external regulator fail simply flip this switch to ON. This switch must be clearly labeled. For normal use, with an external regulator the brass strap is NOT installed between F & R.

Don't forget over current protection at 150% of alternator output within 7" of the house positive terminal.. Also a neg cable, the same size as positive, should be run directly to the house battery or physically stacked & bolted on-top of the engine negative lug, if that wire is appropriately sized. Despite this being a "case ground" alternator the neg side of the alternator should not rely on the engine as a circuit path. Early C-34's used 4 AWG and this would not be "appropriately sized" for carrying upwards of 100A to where the batteries are on these early boats. We are looking to keep voltage drop well below 3% for charging circuits..

[KWKloeber]

Rod

Are you saying the green (ign) term needs to be jumpered to the F (field) terminal, and then in an emergency bond F (ign, field) to R (internal reg)?   Or is the F terminal already internally bonded to the green Ign terminal?  (If to, what's the purpose of having both the Field wire and the Ignition wire, if they are internally bonded anyway?)

ken

quote author=mainesail link=topic=9455.msg70692#msg70692 date=1494419465]
The green wire is connected to the ignition switch as emergency back-up for the internal regulator. Should the external regulator fail simply install the brass strap across the F & R terminals and the internal regulator will now run the alternator. Alternatively an on/off switch can be installed across F & R and left OPEN/OFF indefinitely. Should the external regulator fail simply flip this switch to ON. This switch must be clearly labeled. For normal use, with an external regulator the brass strap is NOT installed between F & R.

Don't forget over current protection at 150% of alternator output within 7" of the house positive terminal.. Also a neg cable, the same size as positive, should be run directly to the house battery or physically stacked & bolted on-top of the engine negative lug, if that wire is appropriately sized. Despite this being a "case ground" alternator the neg side of the alternator should not rely on the engine as a circuit path. Early C-34's used 4 AWG and this would not be "appropriately sized" for carrying upwards of 100A to where the batteries are on these early boats. We are looking to keep voltage drop well below 3% for charging circuits..
[/quote]

[mainesail]

Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition

With the "F" to "R" jumper strap removed the internal regulator has no control over the alternator. The internal reg is just sitting there and the external regulator drives the alt via the "F" terminal.

"R" is the feed from the internal regulators field output

"F" is the brush

To complete the path from the internal regulators field output, to the brush, you re-install the jumper strap or place an ON/OFF switch across F & R and leave it OFF, unless the external regulator were to fail.

[KWKloeber]

Rod,

Thanks for that explanation. 

What is the purpose of the Green TERMINAL on the diagram, not the green wire?  ie, what does the red ignition wire (going to the green terminal) power or connect to internally?

ken

Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition

With the "F" to "R" jumper strap removed the internal regulator has no control over the alternator. The internal reg is just sitting there and the external regulator drives the alt via the "F" terminal.

"R" is the feed from the internal regulators field output

"F" is the brush

To complete the path from the internal regulators field output, to the brush, you re-install the jumper strap or place an ON/OFF switch across F & R and leave it OFF, unless the external regulator were to fail.

[J_Sail]

As MaineSail said, "Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition". He is referring to the Green Terminal on the Alternator. It's the source of power to the electronics of the internal regulator.

[J_Sail]

Read this only if you are interested in a slightly more complicated discussion of the issues of switching back to the internal regulator in the case where the external regulator fails. It's optional, but following it results in a slightly better implementation of the emergency switchover.

Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition

With the "F" to "R" jumper strap removed the internal regulator has no control over the alternator. The internal reg is just sitting there and the external regulator drives the alt via the "F" terminal.

"R" is the feed from the internal regulators field output

"F" is the brush

To complete the path from the internal regulators field output, to the brush, you re-install the jumper strap or place an ON/OFF switch across F & R and leave it OFF, unless the external regulator were to fail.

If the external regulator fails, there is a tiny chance it could fail in a manner than shorts its field output wire to ground. In that case, in addition to installing the strap between terminals R & F, you would also want to disconnect and tape off the wire that runs from the regulator's Field control output terminal to the alternator's F terminal. 

If installing a switch, the same thing would be accomplished by using a SPDT switch instead of just an ON/OFF switch. Remove the wire from the alternator's F terminal and connect it to one side of the switch. Connect the opposite end of the switch to the alternator's R terminal. Connect the center term of the switch to the alternator's F terminal. Label the switch so that the position that ties the F to the R terminal is INTERNAL and the position that ties the F terminal to the wire is EXTERNAL.

[KWKloeber]

As MaineSail said, "Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition". He is referring to the Green Terminal on the Alternator. It's the source of power to the electronics of the internal regulator.

J, Thanks,.  OK, I THINK I understand it now. 

I was ass/u/ming that the int reg was powered differently.  So the green terminal CONTINUALLY powers the int reg (ie, it is always "working") but there is no effect because the jumper bar is removed.  I would have thought that the int reg would be powered up "ONLY" when it's needed (if the ext reg fails).

Your 2nd explanation on the DT switch makes a LOT of sense.

kk

[mainesail]

Rod,

Thanks for that explanation. 

What is the purpose of the Green TERMINAL on the diagram, not the green wire?  ie, what does the red ignition wire (going to the green terminal) power or connect to internally?

ken

Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition

With the "F" to "R" jumper strap removed the internal regulator has no control over the alternator. The internal reg is just sitting there and the external regulator drives the alt via the "F" terminal.

"R" is the feed from the internal regulators field output

"F" is the brush

To complete the path from the internal regulators field output, to the brush, you re-install the jumper strap or place an ON/OFF switch across F & R and leave it OFF, unless the external regulator were to fail.

Ken,

If you click on the second image in this link you will be able to see the plug/harness...

http://shop.marinehowto.com/products/cmi-performance-alternators

[mainesail]

Read this only if you are interested in a slightly more complicated discussion of the issues of switching back to the internal regulator in the case where the external regulator fails. It's optional, but following it results in a slightly better implementation of the emergency switchover.

Green feeds the internal regulator +12V ignition

With the "F" to "R" jumper strap removed the internal regulator has no control over the alternator. The internal reg is just sitting there and the external regulator drives the alt via the "F" terminal.

"R" is the feed from the internal regulators field output

"F" is the brush

To complete the path from the internal regulators field output, to the brush, you re-install the jumper strap or place an ON/OFF switch across F & R and leave it OFF, unless the external regulator were to fail.

If the external regulator fails, there is a tiny chance it could fail in a manner than shorts its field output wire to ground. In that case, in addition to installing the strap between terminals R & F, you would also want to disconnect and tape off the wire that runs from the regulator's Field control output terminal to the alternator's F terminal. 

If installing a switch, the same thing would be accomplished by using a SPDT switch instead of just an ON/OFF switch. Remove the wire from the alternator's F terminal and connect it to one side of the switch. Connect the opposite end of the switch to the alternator's R terminal. Connect the center term of the switch to the alternator's F terminal. Label the switch so that the position that ties the F to the R terminal is INTERNAL and the position that ties the F terminal to the wire is EXTERNAL.

Sure that can always be done too but Mark & myself prefer to keep it as simple for the DIY as is possible. I suspect the odds of a failure like this are similar to walking around wearing a motor cycle helmet because you're afraid you might get hit by a meteorite. If the output FET on the reg field output were to fail shorted, the most likely scenario in this situation wouldlikely be a full field situation. I have not seen any external regulator fail internally in this manner.

The safest installation IMHO is one where the F to R strap is wire tied or physically mounted near the alt and clearly labeled. If the external regulator fails you remove the external field wire when you install the F to R strap. Simple, just two nuts and your done. Wiring in any switch, between F & R leads to more connections, more voltage drop, and more potential for strain relief or chafe issues etc.. Course some owners feel they want this so it is mentioned.

As near as I can tell I have either installed or sold about 450-500 of the the ARS-5, MC-612, MC-624 or 614 regulators since about 2007 (I'm a Balmar stocking dealer/distributor and supply many local yards plus all the Balmar products sold OPE). I sell about 8:1 MC-614 to ARS-5 so my data is mostly based on the MC-614.. I sell approx 50 regs per year & sold 4 regulators or kits including regulators since last Friday. Of all those regulators I have had one bad one, and it had failed right out of the box. It had a bad reed switch and could not be properly programmed. It still worked fine but was stuck on UFP and could not be programmed.. Regulator failures since we've moved beyond the ARS-4's & the potting epoxy changes (I had two ARS-4's fail on my own boats) have been very few and far between when installed properly.

The redundant internal regulator is really a sales/benefit feature that perhaps 99.99% of owners will never even need. I suspect the risk of a DIY getting the wiring of the SPDT switch messed up, multiple more points for failure, strain relief etc. would be higher than the risk of failure due to field shorting to ground.

We should also keep in perspective that we don't have; redundant starter motors, fuel pumps, stuffing boxes, seacocks, reversing gears, rudders, standing rigging, nav lights, VHF's, raw water pumps, engine fresh water pumps etc. etc. so an alternator that features a redundant regulator is already really moving the failure protection to a new high beyond most any other critical item on-board. Many boats also have solar, wind, AC charger all on top of the alternator so a failure here is even less critical than a failed stuffing box, starter motor,head stay, bilge pump or seacock...

DIY's generally get ON/OFF switches but in my experience they begin to lose grasp once we enter the realm of DPDT or SPDT switches. For guys like you or I or Ken this is fine, but for Joe DIY both Mark and I prefer to keep it simple. I actually don't like any switch, SP or SPDT, in the F to R path as it has the potential for inadvertently getting "flipped". With both regulators working it may not be noticed that the alt is running at 14.1V (internal) as opposed to 14.8V etc...   Keeping it simple is achieved by installing the jumper strap only when, or if, you ever need it and when you do that you can simply remove the blue external reg field wire when you have the nuts off to install the strap...

[britinusa]

What would be the consequence of the external regulator dying?

ie. If I were motoring along and the ext-reg died, what would I notice?

If I did notice that there was no charging taking place, then, IMHO, If the external regulator dies then it's not a big deal to disconnect the Field wire at the alternator and connect the jumper between F & R.  (You know, 'while I'm in there')

But the SPDT switch would make it easier than trying to fiddle around at the back of the Alternator (and Hot engine!)

Paul

[Stu Jackson]

ie. If I were motoring along and the ext-reg died, what would I notice?

Paul, what instrumentation do you have for digital voltage readings?  The cockpit panel won't help at all.  We have a Link 2000 down below and I check it regularly.  Easy to see "what's up."  I also check the readout on my MC-612.

[Noah]

Good eyes and placement to"check your MC-612"! Mine is on the inside of the head sink door and I never check it. Maybe I should? I do have a digital multimeter on my main panel for my "what's what".