Water Heater Leak

[KWKloeber]

Good to hear. 👌
Thanks for the feedback. 👍🏻

[Stu Jackson]

...I did a little more digging through the older "Burping" threads and Wiki 101 so will head down today and give it a try. My raw water intake is clear but that wasn't likely the problem yesterday:)

Congratulations! 

A little over temp would, at least to me, not indicate an air lock in the coolant circulation system, because if there was it would shoot way, way up and stay there, not just be a "tad" warmer consistently, assuming you were out for more than 5 minutes.

If you're sure you filled the heater loop up, then the next step would be to warm the engine up and pop the petcock on the top of the thermostat housing, since that was the way old way to get air out.  Carefully with long pliers, it's HOT.

I doubt a silly little cubic centimeter of air would cause your issues, while any really significant glob of air would cause a more catastrophic and immediate overheat.

Let us know.

[Hawk]

Stu,
I did all of that and unfortunately the engine still increased to over 190 over about 10 minutes. normally it will run at 165 for hours at 2200rpm.

Today it starts to move from 160 toward 190 when the rpm's are at 2000. I had it in gear at the dock.

I have not done the pressure cap off and 2500 to 3000rpm option yet.

Any  thoughts?  Anyone?

Many thanks
Tom

[KWKloeber]

Tom,

Is your TStat cap to exhaust manifold hose hot?  A cool hose is symptomatic of water not circulating (possibly Tsat stuck).

Did you get to "basting" the coolant pump?  What you describe happening at the dock is exactly the same symptoms he had at the dock -- he didn't take it out for a run so I can't speak to that.  His pump impeller was turning "in air," not coolant.  If the impeller is not bathed in liquid, then it's impossible for the coolant pump to push anything thru the block.  If you are getting some flow, then the WP does not have an airlock.
The flow is from the Hx => WP => engine block => Tstat  => Tstat cap => exhaust manifold => to the Hx.

As you allude, is the problem with the RWP (impeller, etc.?) or flow to or thru the Hx?   (I'd suspect that last because the change you made was on the coolant side.)

-k

[Ed Shankle]

To build on Ken's last comment regarding the raw water side, how is the exhaust flow? If it seems like the volume is low, as Ken said, could be the HX. A few of us have experienced a salt or calcium build up in the HX nipple connected to the hose from the raw water pump. It slowly builds and ultimately closes off the flow. A simple check is to take off the hose at that end and peek in with a flashlight. If you do have the blockage, you can break it up with screwdriver.

Regards,
Ed

[Hawk]

Still no solution on the over heating.

I put coolant into the pump, filled the hose all good. I warmed the engine up and opened the thermostat petcock so fluid ran out, all good. Ran the engine up to 2900 for several minutes with the pressure cap off of the manifold, all good.
The hose from the thermostat to the manifold warmed up as Ken suggested to check.
The raw water seems to be pumping out the stern exit port just fine and looks normal to me.
BUT up to about 1500rpm all is fine at about 160F but when I put it to 2100 the temp slowly creeps up over 10 to 15 mins toward 200F.

Normally my engine will run 10 hours straight at 2400rpms at 165F. Done it coming down from Desolation Sound several times.

SO one thought is the thermostat which is old...could replace it.
Another thought is a small blockage into or of the HX or possibly the elbow. I had the HX serviced 4 years ago at an alternator shop however.

I'm scratching my head harder now...starting to hurt. :)

Please weigh in with any thoughts/suggestions.

Thank
Tom

[Stu Jackson]

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



SO one thought is the thermostat which is old...could replace it.
Another thought is a small blockage into or of the HX or possibly the elbow. I had the HX serviced 4 years ago at an alternator shop however.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Please weigh in with any thoughts/suggestions.

Tom,

Don't tear your hair out quite yet.    Your systematic approach should be applauded and continued.

Ed wrote about our experiences with HX inlet ports.  They sometimes block up with salt precipitation.  I have been recommending removing the HX every two or three years, yourself, when you have the downtime, and check the ports.  It's rarely the tubes.  We have no idea what "service" from an alternator shop could be, but I'm sure you could tell us.  In any event someone took it off.  If you did, we figure you looked closely at it.  If not...

It is also rarely the elbow.  The water gushes in thru that nipple pretty quickly.  The welds and the risers break first.

Thermostat?  Who woulda thunk that'd be my next culprit.  Got nothin' to lose there either.

Stay with it, keep us posted.

[KWKloeber]

Hawk

I'm torn.

The symptoms you describe are exactly what I had with the 2" Hx. So that points to RWP flow and related in-line issues.
But I still go back to the point that all you messed with is the closed coolant side.  Clarify - were the temps ok just before doing the WH work?  And you didn't mess with the seawater side at all?

I had a wicked time finding out why I was overheating after messing with the closed side. Even the CTY dealer's diesel mechanic couldn't figure it out.  I had just gotten her and we ended up replacing the sender, hoses, tstat, and had nearly yanked the coolant pump. That was when I was young and dumb, and didn't know about the more involved burping on the C-30s.  The WH on the mk-I sits high in the sail locker and traps air. Once I learned how to burp it I never had another problem, except at higher rpm.  So that, and your, issue points to not enough Hx cooling. ie, either not enough RWP flow or not enough cooling.  My brain says either there is a flow blockage, or the Hx is partially blocked.  I used to occasionally overheat when grass would get sucked against the intake side of the tubes (past the RWP. Huh?!?!)

But my heart says "closed coolant side."

I suppose for sanity's sake it would be worth investing in a thermometer to ck the gauge?

If you are not overheating when running at normal rpm then my brain says the tsat is opening and that's not your problem.  Maybe not opening completely?

I don't have a salt issue so can't speak to the injection wye being blocked.  Doesn't seem likely, tho.

I'd defo knock things off from easiest to inspect, to the more difficult.  Even if the more difficult seems more likely the cause.

I don't think I've given you anything concrete as far as a magic bullet — just my thought progression I'd have if trying to troubleshoot it.

-k

[Hawk]

Thanks Stu and Ken,

Reading the Thermostat 101 thread leads me to try replacing the thermostat as someone else replaced their WH and after burping found they also had to put in a new thermostat. I've had the boat 11 years so who knows how old it is. Could be partially stuck so only at high rpms the engine will overheat in 10 minutes as Ron mentioned, which is exactly the case. Also watching the raw water flow out the back it looks normal and certainly should not be resulting in 200F at only 2000 rpm.

So I'll find a thermostat and gasket and try that first. Looks like I need to carefully undo the bolts on the thermostat housing. Anything to be aware of in the replacement job??

Thanks guys

Tom

[KWKloeber]

Tom FYI,

M-25/XP, M3-20, M35, early XPB to 3/1998 (smaller Tstat housing)
160F 38mm Tstat
   Westerbeke            301358
   Kubota thermostat 160F 71C      1E399-73010   $28
   (supersedes p/ns 19203-73010, 19203-73013, 19203-73014.)
Therm gasket          
   Westerbeke            300237
   Kubota            16851-73270   $ 3
   (supersedes p/ns 15676-73272, 15531-73270.)

The bolts are haphazard.  I just had an XP that I was sure would be a problem, but the owner said the bolts came out like butter.  My '84 is 100% freshwater and 10 yrs ago I couldn't budge 'em. I tried all the usual remedies - nada.  So I drilled them to use a Not-EZ- out), ran astray, and thru the side of the bolt (and naturally Tstat cap.)  So I have a new cap and new bolts (they are metric, btw.)  If I could, I'd have done it differently -- snapped off or drilled out just the heads and pop the cap to get rust buster on the threads and locking pliers onto the bolts.

If you do not have the hi-temp switch on your Tstat cap, I suggest while it's off, prep it to add one down the road.  Eazy-peazy, drill and tap a 1/8" NPT hole on the flat part that's at about 2 o'clock, and insert a 1/8" plug.  Then a Hi-temp switch can be added anytime later.

Key when you replace the tstat is to keep good continuity between it and engine block (there is a gasket in the way of that.)  Corrosion (and increased resistance) will cause low readings on the gauge (which per Teleflex is only +/-15 deg accurate @ 190 F anyway.)

So I recommend owners clean the threads well, and remove paint under the bolt heads.  Use copper-based never-seize (Permatex 09128 or other) on the bolts and sender, and a biting external star lockwasher under the bolt head.  After all is sent home, paint/seal over the bolt heads.***
This retards corrosion wicking under the hex heads and eating away at the ground bond.

***Or install my patented temp gauge sender bonding "kit."  :-)

Good luck.

-k

[Hawk]

Thanks Ken.

I had noticed the old part number changed so your update is very helpful. Hopefully the local dealer has the tstat.
Fingers crossed that the bolts are not a problem. Thanks for the tips.

Hawk

[KWKloeber]

Tom

if you can get one from a local Kb dealer or Amazon, it's a lot better than $64US from Westerbeke!

Another note that I'm sure doesn't apply to how the C34 WH's are in relation to the engine, but on the 30 MK-Is, we have to really hi rev the engine, throttle back, hi rev, etc. several times to clear the airlock.  It's a PITA until the WH hose mod is done -- that removes it from being in series with the Hx circuit loop.  It's (was) a Rube Goldberg arrangement....



-k

[Stu Jackson]

In addition to the locations of our C34 systems bearing no relationship to a C30, our water heaters are connected differently to the coolant circuit, not via the HX loop.  Ken, you must remember our parallel series recent conversation?!?  :D:D

[KWKloeber]

Au contraire Stu,

The WH is plumbed exactly the same way as the C34 on all C30 MK-IIs, MK-IIIs.  And MK-Is with XPs (or M-25s once the WH mod is done) per my post (not just look at the diagram, which is pre-mod!)

<<< It's a PITA until the WH hose mod is done -- that removes it from being in series with the Hx circuit loop >>>

Since the plumbing switch was made about the same time, I'm uncertain if the C34 was plumbed like OURS,  or if the C30 was plumbed like YOURS.  Having hit the water 10 years before the 34, we like to believe we are the leaders of the pack.   I tend to think the mod was discovered for the C30, and then carried over to the C34 production.

C34 systems bear "no relationship"?  That's pretty Parochial, 'eh?  Many things are exactly the same.  Many differences, but many the same. 
We have sails, we have engines, the same boom section, same charging, same exploding alternator brackets, we have same cockpit panels, we have non-ABYC-compliant harness fire hazards, we have the identical water heaters, we have......   beer  .... like the 34.

Of course I remember the loop circuit conversation, remember who had to explain it!

BTW, some time ago coming back from a family gettogether in NH, I took a ride past the old Rego Park area. Wow.

-ken

[Ron Hill]

Hawk : Have you tried to blow thru the Water Heater hoses and make sure they/all are clear?   
Try that then refill and then reburp!
You can also try removing the Tstat (check it in water on the stove with a candy thermometer) or even run the engine with NO thermostat.

A few thoughts