Print

Please login or register.

[britinusa]

Couldn't find anything in search results, but here's an oddball question.

There could be a scenario where we needed to start the engine but find the solenoid has failed, totally.

Any chance we could start the engine with a pull line around one of the engine pulleys (especially as ours has 3 double pulleys)

I figure that the engine needs to get to about 300rpm to get up and running.
That's around 2.5 revs in a 1/2 second pull.

Of course, it might require Hercules to turn it over!

Just wondered if anyone had ever tried it?

Paul

[Stu Jackson]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Just wondered if anyone had ever tried it?

In 15 years on this forum, 18 years counting the old List, and 29 years of reading C34, C36, C30 Mainsheet articles about these engines:

NO.  :D:D

The "trick?"  Install and maintain a healthy electrical system.  No excuse to not do so given all the information we have layin' around here.   

In the early 90s, the C30 Mainsheet tech editor "promoted" the use of the decompression lever on M25 engines.  After gagging on this nonsense for many years, I could only conclude that he had no idea about how to design and install a fully functioning electrical system on a sailboat.  He still doesn't.

[Ron Hill]

Paul : If I found that I still had battery power, but the solenoid failed here what I would do:

After heating up the glow plugs, cracking the throttle,  I'd take a long plastic/wood handled screw drive and lay the shank on the on the threaded portion of the starter solenoid (where the battery wire attaches) and then touch the tip onto the engine block.  You'll hear the starter kick over until the tip is removed from being grounded on the block. The engine should start. 

That's also a way to check your starter if nothing happens when you hit the starter button.  If the starter cranks when the screwdriver touches the block you know the starter is OK!! Then it might be starter switch, the fuse, the wiring or the solenoid itself??

As Stu said Just maintain a good electrical system.
 
I also carried a Honda 1000 to keep up the batteries at anchor - so my backup was always there!!

A Few thoughts

[Noah]

You might even try the sails!

[KWKloeber]

Ron: 

Screwdrivering the battery cable ("B") terminal of the solenoid to the block would be a dead short to ground and weld the tip of the screwdriver to the block.  I think you may have meant the scenario of shorting the "B" terminal to the "S" terminal?  Of course, that works only if there's a problem in the "S" circuit (bad key switch, start switch, wiring, etc.)  It doesn't help with a bad solenoid switch.

Paul,

I recall too many years ago, my Grandfather crank-starting the farm tractor.  Google something like "hand crank diesel tractor decompression lever"  The only way you could turn it over would be by using the decompression lever.

Being as proactive as you are, if you had an old AUTO ENGINE, you could devise a simple item to carry aboard to bypasss the solenoid.  The solenoid connects the "B" terminal to the 12v+ terminal on the starter motor, and spins it.  SO, it would be possible to make up an adapter than screws onto both those terminals (probably using metric "coupling nuts".) Then a stand-alone "ford-type" solenoid switch between those terminals.  Thus you are totally bypassing the switch mounted to the starter.

HOWEVER (<--  BIG) that WON'T WORK with our engines!!!  Fords and others had what's called a BENDIX drive (the torque of the starter motor forced the starter pinion gear into the flywheel (there was no OTHER mechanical means necessary to do that.)  Our engines HAVE NO BENDIX drive -- they instead have an "overriding clutch" drive.  The pinion is thrown into the flywheel with a yoke in the solenoid (the switch moves, the yoke pivots, and the pinion is thrown into the flywheel.)  SO without a way to get the pinion gear to engage with the flywheel, bypassing the solenoid does no good.  ie, the starter motor will spin nicely, but neither engage the flywheel nor turn over the engine.

kk

[KWKloeber]

...and then touch the tip onto the engine block.  You'll hear the starter kick over...

YBYC, but NOMB.  Actually what you'll hear is a loud ZAP, with "a few sparks, and a quick whiff of ozone."** 
And have dirty underwear to boot.

kk

** reference "A Christmas Story."

[britinusa]

Yes, I said Solenoid failure, but my thought was if the Solenoid failed, the starter would engage, not even if the solenoid was shorted and the starter was powered up by shorting the solenoid.

eg. If I shorted power to the starter, it would spin, but it would not engage the flywheel.

and yes, sails are the way to go, but the question was really, what if we needed to start the engine.

and 'Oddball' question

 

Paul

[KWKloeber]

Yes, I said Solenoid failure, but my thought was if the Solenoid failed, the starter would engage, not even if the solenoid was shorted and the starter was powered up by shorting the solenoid.

eg. If I shorted power to the starter, it would spin, but it would not engage the flywheel.

and yes, sails are the way to go, but the question was really, what if we needed to start the engine.

and 'Oddball' question

 

Paul

Paul, Mea culpa. 
More precisely, I should have said "a yoke in the starter housing" (not in the solenoid.)  The end of the solenoid (the hook) engages the yoke, pivots it, and the yoke moves the pinion gear into the flywheel.

Unlike a BENDIX (when the engine speed overtakes the starter speed, it spins backwards and disengages from the flywheel,) on OURS the pinion will remain engaged so long as the starter is engaged (the overriding clutch allows the pinion to spin freely when engine speed overtakes the starter motor speed.)

confusing?

k

[Stu Jackson]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

and yes, sails are the way to go, but the question was really, what if we needed to start the engine.

and 'Oddball' question

 

Not an "Oddball" question at all.  It really is pertinent to all sailboats with an auxiliary engine operation.

Most of us know that we should be constantly thinking "What's my fallback strategy?" when sailing.  "What happens if my forestay goes?"  It actually happened to a friend of mine on his Islander Bahama 24 in "The Slot" on San Francisco Bay!  He immediately fell off and sailed downwind into Berkeley and got it sorted out.  The very next day after I learned of his travail, I took my Catalina 25 in for new standing rigging.  As the rigger was taking the single offset backstay off, the closed body turnbuckle simply disintegrated in his hand! "Gee, Stu, good thing ya brought it in when ya did!"

I'm always thinking "What ifs?" as I sail or motor.  Always.

When THIS happened, from page one of the Critical Upgrades topic...

Hot water heater hose replacement  UNDER THE GALLEY SOLE

If your hoses wear out, you lose ALL engine coolant, and your engine will pack it in.  Really!!!

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3769.0.html

...we were motoring under the east span of The Bay Bridge to an anchorage.   Cory noticed the engine temperature rising and asked "What do we do?!?"  "Turn off the engine."  She did, we sailed in on jib alone and anchored.  I sorted it out by finding lots of coolant in the bilge.  Although I filled the manifold with distilled water, that all leaked out, too.

The next morning we started the engine only to break out the anchor, and slowly sailed back to our berth.  And sailed into it.

When our exhaust riser died, I sailed back and into our slip, although an hour and a half trip took four hours.

When we first got our boat, I practiced sailing into our slip.  Many times.  With the engine on, but out of gear.  We were fortunate in that the normal summer SF winds from the west had us going downwind, 90 d turn to starboard to a beam reach between our marina and another, 90 d tun to port down our fairway, and final 90 d turn to starboard into our slip.  I always used jib only for this, as I could either fly the jib sheet or even furl the jib.

Not everyone has this luxury.  If your home slip doesn't, then always think of a fallback and a place to tie up temporarily.

One day we were motoring out and the coupling threw a couple of bolts.  We pulled into a restaurant's dock and fixed it.

On a trip to Monterey on a friend's C34 Mark II his engine died a few miles out The Gate.  "What do we do?"  I said, "Sail on to Half Moon Bay, worst case we anchor out, but we can work on it on the way down."  The skipper and his friend insisted we sail back to SF, so we did.  Then they said, "Whadda we do now?"  One of them pointed out a big restaurant side tie dock, so I sailed her into the dock on jib alone.  The skipper didn't heed my suggestions as to how to clear his fuel system (i.e., blow into the tank by removing the hose to the fuel filter) and insisted we sail back to his own slip, which was deep, deep into his marina, although on a beam reach down the last fairway.  They started to raise the mainsail, which is discouraged.   I sailed the boat off the dock, jib alone downwind, but the wind died inside his marina so we took an empty slip and he moved his boat the next day.

Sure, if you're gonna be run down by a freighter, you HAVE to start your engine.  Other than that, I can't think of too many "Have To Start" scenarios that do not include "sailing to a schedule" or "I have to get back to work."  But we all know how damaging "sailing to a schedule" can be at the best of times.

Of course, if you're being swept onto the rocks, there's always the anchor, right?  I know that feeling when our anchor dragged in Drakes Bay on our first day sailing to to Vancouver Island last August!!!

But "stuff happens" and we need to be aware of the options we all have when they do.

That said, I simply don't recall much discussion, if any at all, about dead starter solenoids.  I do recall many discussions of "Honey, the engine won't turn over, no clicks, nuttin'!!!"  Happened to me in 2004.  The fix?  The damn fuse in the wire from the start button to the starter solenoid.  Also covered quite extensively in Critical Upgrades.

So, yeah, not an "Oddball" question at all.

Things do happen.  Good thing you're thinkin' ahead. 

[britinusa]

Precisely Stu!

I had a nasty experience once when we could not start an engine while being dragged by current in a really deep channel when the wind died. No chance to anchor, unable to sail, took ages to start the engine. (but did eventually after a very close call)

Take away from that: If you think you might need your engine either don't go there, or get it running before you do.

Now when I'm sailing, I'm constantly thinking. If I do that, what is the fall back plan.

So when we're about to head into a risky channel, even if sailing through, I'll start the engine and the 3 anchor securing hooks are reduced to one.

I never get bored when sailing.

Like you, we practice sailing to and from anchorages. However, we keep our boat 1 hour up a river, past 5 bridges that have to open to let us pass and finally turn our boat into a canal nearly 50' wide with boats on boh sides, so perhaps a maneuverable width of about 15' . Because there is only a small beamed boat opposite our dock, we can turn our boat around at the dock by holding the pullpit and letting the, normally, east wind blow the stern around or by having a line from the stbd qtr up to the bow and back port side to where I step off to the dock. Sailing to our dock is not an option.

We have had an occasion when the engine died while navigating the river about a hundred yards from a bridge that had just opened for us. We moved over to the side between a couple of large, very expensive, motor yachts and was able to get a line ashore to tie up. I was able to clear the fuel blockage (hence why we're planning on cleaning the fuel tank) and get going again. So we have fenders on deck while transiting the river.

Now, back to the question. Can the engine be started with a pull cord?

 

Paul

[lazybone]

Pull cord? How would you attach a pull cord?

There's enough splined shaft exposed on the crank that you could hand turn the engine if you had a proper length ratcheted handle.  If the glow plugs still worked and with the decompression lever over... maybe.  Could get ugly fast if you couldn't get the handle off after it starts. 

[britinusa]

Lazybone,
that reminded me of when I had to service a large diesel powered chance light while at a Naval Air Station back in 1969, it had a hand crank (with the typical slanted notch end to disengage when engine started)
We literally had to stand on the handle to get the shaft turning (I was a wimp back then at about 105lbs) But once the oil had moved around it a bit, we could turn the engine over. Today that would be a heart attack waiting to happen.

I had to hand start many a diesel tractor using the same technique. And my Dad had an Austin that needed hand cranking occasionally.

Best one of all. We serviced the Dragonfly Helicopter, it had a horizontal Radial engine. 1st Pre Flight service included turning the engine a specific number of rotations in order to get oil dispersed from the sump. Then to start it, the pilot would fire off a cartridge that rotated the crankshaft.

[Stu Jackson]

>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>

Now, back to the question. Can the engine be started with a pull cord?

Great story, Paul.

Please go back to reply #1.   

[Braxton]

Put a cordless drill with an appropriate sized socket on the shaft bolt.   Open the compressor lever, crank the engine with the drill.  Close the compression lever.   Get everything off quickly and hope you don't have a socket flying through the air at 1800 RPM.   

You should be able to do the same with a socket set ratchet handle on the bolt.

In college we had a Bristol 28 that we had to do this to, after a bit we had a handle custom made for it.

The problem is getting everything off without seriously hurting yourself.   Murphy's law can strike rather severely here.

A much better option is to take Stu's advice and sail it back.

[Noah]

How about some big viking-style oars?!