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Author Topic: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.  (Read 1963 times)

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Stucker

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2017, 05:59:10 AM »

I second Jon's comment regarding Fred's work. I don't see, though, an answer posted to the original Q of whether a starting battery is preferred over a deep cycle type.  That answer is that a starting type is definitely the right one for your application. It will give you more starting omph for a given size.

Jeremy

Note: Starting-type batteries are optimized for max short-term cranking amps (using a higher number of thinner plates to maximize surface area). Deep discharge batteries have a smaller number of thicker plates and handle repeated deep discharge better.

Thanks.  I was actually curious if one would stand up to not being used for long periods of time over the other? 
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Scott Tucker
2003 C34 MK II
Hull #1654
Toronto/1000 Islands

Stu Jackson

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2017, 06:42:00 AM »

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also, why did you feel the need to upgrade chargers? 

Scott,

You need to re-read the Critical Upgrades topic.  Those old Flyback chargers are dangerous.
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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Fred Koehlmann

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2017, 12:47:55 PM »

Thanks Scott,

I didn't post all the details for building the tray, since this post isn't about that. If you plan to do something similiar, I can discuss with you further on a different thread or offline.

As for a divider between the batteries and hot water tank, our boat did not have one. It only had a 2x4 across the top to hold the beasts down. (see picture)

As for the charger, there was some concern with respect to that particular model. Personally we did experience any issue (thankfully), but the new charger is considerable better and does a better job of charging and maintaining the battery. As Stu suggested, please review the critical/highly recommended upgrades online. I'd focus on them first.

Cheers, Fred.
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Frederick Koehlmann: Dolphina - C425 #3, Midland, ON
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Fred Koehlmann

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2017, 12:52:20 PM »

Oh, almost forgot. The "spare" was a type 31. It does fit into that starboard space beside the HW tank (at least for us). There is a bit of juggling when building the shelf. Too low and its not wide enough, too high and there is no room for the battery height and the terminal connections. I do a lot of figuring out with card board mock-ups.
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Frederick Koehlmann: Dolphina - C425 #3, Midland, ON
PO: C34 #1602, M35BC engine

Stucker

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2017, 03:34:15 PM »

Oh, almost forgot. The "spare" was a type 31. It does fit into that starboard space beside the HW tank (at least for us). There is a bit of juggling when building the shelf. Too low and its not wide enough, too high and there is no room for the battery height and the terminal connections. I do a lot of figuring out with card board mock-ups.

Thanks Fred!
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Scott Tucker
2003 C34 MK II
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J_Sail

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2017, 12:45:38 AM »

Thanks.  I was actually curious if one would stand up to not being used for long periods of time over the other?

If kept charged, either will keep years without being used.  It's sitting discharged that kills batteries.  A type 24 maintenance-free flooded-type automotive starter battery is dirt cheap and should last many years. If you don't want to worry about the very remote possibility of acid leakage should it be tipped over or crack, then you could get an AGM-type for more money, but I would still go with the automotive starter-version rather than marine deep-cycle. You should make sure, though, that your charger is configured for whatever battery you use, as some require slightly different charing voltages, and it makes a difference in their lifetime. MaineSail has published excellent articles on the topic.

Jeremy
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 12:48:15 AM by J_Sail »
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2017, 04:39:27 AM »

Thanks.  I was actually curious if one would stand up to not being used for long periods of time over the other?

Jeremy's right.  Any battery will last longer if fully charged and then left to rest.  Continuous "float" charging is not necessarily good for batteries, hence, the newer chargers can actuallly cycle themselves.

No difference between deep cycle and starting types.

You may want to refresh your research by going over the Electrical Systems 101 topic and reading the Ample Power Primer (link provided in that topic).  It discusses basic battery operation and how you can best keep them healthy and long lasting.
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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Stucker

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2017, 02:13:01 PM »

Thanks.  I was actually curious if one would stand up to not being used for long periods of time over the other?

Jeremy's right.  Any battery will last longer if fully charged and then left to rest.  Continuous "float" charging is not necessarily good for batteries, hence, the newer chargers can actuallly cycle themselves.

No difference between deep cycle and starting types.

You may want to refresh your research by going over the Electrical Systems 101 topic and reading the Ample Power Primer (link provided in that topic).  It discusses basic battery operation and how you can best keep them healthy and long lasting.

What is the go to charger today that passes everyone's test? 
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Scott Tucker
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KWKloeber

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2017, 04:20:46 PM »

Is group 24 too small if it's just a backup to get the engine running?


It's "JUST" a backup battery.  That is, until you happen to need it, and then I'd want as much ooomph as I can fit/reasonably afford.

I ran a Grp 24, and found for my M-25, it didn't give me the peace of mind I wanted.   Too weak, so I switched to a Grp 27.  Now I have (3) Grp 31s for house and starting.  JTSO, YBYC, YMMV, etc.

The ProMariner ProNautic-P series are excellent chargers.

kk
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Noah

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2017, 06:41:45 PM »

May depend on the engine and the battery. My 25XP cranks great everytime with my group 24 start battery.
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Jon W

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2017, 08:06:17 PM »

Took my boat out today. Thought of this post so started my M25XP with my Group 24 reserve battery. First time I used it in ~1 year. It started the engine just like the 4 x T105 house bank.
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Jon W.
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2017, 09:34:37 AM »

from the Electrical Systems 101 Topic

Engine Starting Loads - Amp Draw Data (by Maine Sail)

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=102027
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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J_Sail

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2017, 09:02:54 PM »

One critical item that MaineSail and others have written about, but has not been mentioned here, is the importance of using heavy enough battery cables. Undersized cables reduce the voltage available at the starter motor and can easily cause someone to think they don't have a big enough battery. Depending on length, the appropriate gauge generally works out between 1AWG and 00 (2/0)AWG. There is plenty written on the topic so I won't repeat here.

Also, while MaineSail correctly makes the point that a deep-cycle battery is more than capable of serving as a starting battery, it offers no important benefits in that role. If the price were the same, I'd say get the deep-cycle. But the price is not the same and the starting-type battery is both cheaper and has slightly greater cranking amp output for the same case size. While, it is true that deep cycle batteries last longer in abusive environments, I have not seen any data to support the contention that they last longer in reserve situations, when keep fully charged. So I still recommend a starting battery for a reserve engine starting role, but the differences (other than cost) are trivial, so go with whichever you feel like and enjoy the peace of mind that you have a reserve.
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mainesail

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2017, 09:05:31 AM »

One critical item that MaineSail and others have written about, but has not been mentioned here, is the importance of using heavy enough battery cables. Undersized cables reduce the voltage available at the starter motor and can easily cause someone to think they don't have a big enough battery. Depending on length, the appropriate gauge generally works out between 1AWG and 00 (2/0)AWG. There is plenty written on the topic so I won't repeat here.

Also, while MaineSail correctly makes the point that a deep-cycle battery is more than capable of serving as a starting battery, it offers no important benefits in that role. If the price were the same, I'd say get the deep-cycle. But the price is not the same and the starting-type battery is both cheaper and has slightly greater cranking amp output for the same case size. While, it is true that deep cycle batteries last longer in abusive environments, I have not seen any data to support the contention that they last longer in reserve situations, when keep fully charged. So I still recommend a starting battery for a reserve engine starting role, but the differences (other than cost) are trivial, so go with whichever you feel like and enjoy the peace of mind that you have a reserve.

When considering battery type for a start/reserve battery, that may just sit there and do nothing, there are two factors to consider. Starting & reserve/emergency ships power use..

#1 If I need it in an emergency can it start my engine.?

For any decent quality group 24 battery, including a "pseudo deep cycle" this answer is most always yes. If it can't, you have other issues or an unhealthy battery. For Kubota's tractors utilizing larger HP ranges than our boats, (32HP to 46HP) Kubota specs batteries with CCA ratings between 447CCA and 490CCA. A Deka G-24 "deep cycle" has 500CCA, a Trojan G-24 "deep cycle" has 530CCA (SCS-150), a Crown 24T-1000 G-24 marine "deep cycle" has 500CCA. Any deep cycle G27 would have even more.



#2 If I need it for an emergency house bank failure, then what?

By utilizing a "deep cycle" battery as your reserve battery you can actually cycle them, in an emergency, when you have to. A starting battery will give up very quickly when placed into emergency house bank use and will, in many cases be substantially impacted. I know of many who have had this happen over the years and the ones with starting batteries as a back up were quite disappointed at their choice, when they actually needed it.

It is a pretty rare situation where I will install a "starting battery" on a sailboat. There's just no need to. A deep cycle product can serve both scenarios above where a starter can only really serve scenario #1. The cost difference at my Crown and Deka dealers, between a 24 or 27 DC vs. starting is within $8.00 - $12.00. If I max out a G-24 for CCA, 650CCA to 875CCA, then the start battery actually costs more than the DC.

I get to deal quite a bit with go-fast offshore fishing boats. One of the highest internal battery failure rates, internal shorts, I see are in "marine starting" batteries including G-24, 27, 31 & 4D & 8D.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 09:09:36 AM by mainesail »
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J_Sail

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Re: Emergency Battery Q. That will probably get me in trouble.
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2017, 11:31:07 AM »

I accept that in a full-fledged emergency where for some reason you cannot run the engine (or the alternator is dead), then the ability to deep cycle the reserve battery without worrying about damaging would warrant the few extra bucks for a marine deep cycle battery. For the day sailor more worried about discovering that the house bank is simply dead from operator neglect, it shouldn't matter.

But MaineSail has far more experience, and reliability/safety in a real emergency matters. I defer to his judgment.
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