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Author Topic: muffler crack?  (Read 5154 times)

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Capt.Jim

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muffler crack?
« on: December 07, 2016, 10:07:22 PM »

Whewww...
After an adventurous week on the dry, I am back in the water today. Then we started the engine only to realize there's a little crack at the bottom portion of the left hose connection area. ( the one on the left = I meant the one closer to the center of the boat when you look from the door under the sink in the head)

Boatyard guys said that it could be repaired by a fiberglass guy. But then when I read this on Catalina Direct website I began to wonder...

Two ways I have seen an old muffler fail are:
1) The seam at the bottom edge can fail. This can sometimes be repaired by removing the muffler. After a thorough cleaning, you may be able to saturate the failed joint with WEST epoxy, clamp and allow to cure.

CAUTION! Inspect carefully after your repair. Carbon monoxide is colorless, odorless, tasteless, AND DEADLY. If it leaks after your repair, YOU COULD KILL SOMEONE. We highly recommend the installation of a carbon monoxide detector.

2) The bond between the inlet tube and the box itself can fail. This typically occurs because the vibration of the engine is transmitted directly through a rigid hose to the stationary muffler. In this case, it is impossible to achieve a successful repair. Even with the installation of a new hump hose to help isolate the vibration (which we highly recommend), there will be much vibration transmitted to the fiberglass tube. To be strong enough, the repair would have to be made on the inside of the muffler where you have no access. In order to leave the enough fiberglass tube exposed for the hump hose, a repair from the outside would be too small to be secure enough given the serious safety concerns involved.

Are they really not fixable or are they trying to scare people to buy a $375 worth muffler?

Did anybody ever done this kind of repair on their mufflers?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 10:09:11 PM by Capt.Jim »
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Capt. Jim Davis
KISMET '87 C34 - Hull #369 - Fin Keel

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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2016, 10:23:32 PM »

jim

the aqualift mufflers (the old ones) are notorious for leaking -- I fixed mine twice (repaired, not "fixed" it, obviously) before I had a 'boom' and it started leaking badly at the base seams.  I trashed it for a round, stainless steel muffler that has worked great for 20 years.  There was nothing to mod the top in/out was essentially the same spacing no no changes in hose or anything (different set up on the hoses on my 30.)

The AL can be repaired --

I posed an article on the wiki of a 30 guy who did great repair, tough as nails now.   Look it up under the engine topics.   

I had somewhat crushed tubes on mine, and just happened to have some thin-wall aluminum tubing that slid snugly (tapped it) inside and reinforced the tubes.

You NEED a silicone hump hose if you don't have one.  Read all the stuff on the site re: the engines and boat, electrical, etc.!  I know it's not the fun part, but it will save you money and headache in the long run if you take care of all the mods and fixes. I know you said your electrician was up on the M25 engine, but I guarantee  a case of beer doesn't know about everything you'll find on this site!!

post pics of the muffler, engine, electr. etc.


-kk
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 10:25:25 PM by KWKloeber »
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Capt.Jim

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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2016, 10:59:59 PM »

Case of beer sounds good now my friend!

I am not sure what he knows or not he is not available for the next 2 days. He was gone few hrs before my splash so, he didn't witness the leak.
I saw (read here) that some people used Vertex Vernalift brand mufflers. They seem the half price of Catalina Direct's price.
I currently have top in/top out model standard rectangle white Catalina one there.
I was wondering if the side in/top out or visa versa model makes any difference or should I only use top in/top out style Vernalift?

I am reading the posts regarding some of these issues but also I realized some of the posts from 2008 !   So, I was wondering if something else better, simpler, cheaper came along between 2008 and now?  :D
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 11:13:51 PM by Capt.Jim »
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Capt. Jim Davis
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Stu Jackson

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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2016, 08:17:09 AM »

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6728.0.html

There are two muffler replacement articles in the Tech Notes, Ron Hill wrote one, I wrote the second one  (February 2016).

You should also do a search on "muffler" if you haven't already.  It's a popular and well covered subject.

You have many options.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 08:19:25 AM by Stu Jackson »
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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2016, 08:22:00 AM »


1.   I currently have top in/top out model standard rectangle white Catalina one there.
I was wondering if the side in/top out or visa versa model makes any difference or should I only use top in/top out style Vernalift?

2.   So, I was wondering if something else better, simpler, cheaper came along between 2008 and now?  :D

1.  Hose location will determine port location for the muffler.  So, follow the exhaust riser and see what fits, unless you want to redo your exhaust riser to fit a new muffler(!!!).

2.  No.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 08:22:50 AM by Stu Jackson »
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KWKloeber

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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2016, 08:58:55 AM »

Jim

AquaLift:
From what I've gathered on here, on the 34 the AL fit is more critical than like on my the 30 -- we have more options.  I have a 30 MK-II owner (w/ M-25XP) who replaced his aqualift with a side in/top out Centek, and saved the AL  -- there's nothing wrong with it (so far at least.)  If you're interested I can have him get in touch (he's in SF bay). 

On the 30 the locations of both the inlet and outlet are critical (OEM, the exhaust hose exits straight up thru a hole in the galley cabinet -- but that can be changed.)  I don't know how the "out" routes on the 34, but maybe only the "in" is fixed? (ie, riser location.)  Note that you may also be likely to have a bad riser, now or soon, it may leak. Best to check out the whole thing from exhaust flange to muffler out.  There's recent posts re a leaking riser at the injection elbow and relaceing the riser.

if you can use the used muffler, you could do some fixes to reinforce it, and then it would be a switch out with no down time.

ken
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Ron Hill

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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2016, 01:06:56 PM »

Jim : You have a leak (hose to the center of the boat- your description) on the inlet hose coming from the exhaust riser.
The most common problem is that this leak was caused by a failure from no raw water cooling!! (impeller? clogged inlet? etc? etc? etc?)  This will cause the inlet pipe in the muffler to deform and further tightening of the hose clamps may even crack the inlet.

The normal easy fix is to simply re-fiberglass the inlet tube and then also replace the 6-8" section of stiff black hose with a flexible hump hose. 
There have been other numerous discussions on fixing this problem!!

a few quick thought
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Capt.Jim

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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2016, 07:46:10 PM »

Jim : You have a leak (hose to the center of the boat- your description) on the inlet hose coming from the exhaust riser.
The most common problem is that this leak was caused by a failure from no raw water cooling!! (impeller? clogged inlet? etc? etc? etc?)  This will cause the inlet pipe in the muffler to deform and further tightening of the hose clamps may even crack the inlet.

The normal easy fix is to simply re-fiberglass the inlet tube and then also replace the 6-8" section of stiff black hose with a flexible hump hose. 
There have been other numerous discussions on fixing this problem!!

a few quick thought

Thanks Ron...

Today I decided to order a new Vernalift muffler but still I am keeping the original muffler came out of the boat.
The only question in my mind is that the Vernalift muffler is a little different style.
It's not rectangle but a circular one and also while the original is top in/out style, Vernalift we ordered is side in/top out...
I don't know if it will make any difference or not? I guess we'll find out tomorrow...


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Capt. Jim Davis
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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2016, 09:56:31 PM »


It's not rectangle but a circular one ....  side in/top out...
I don't know if it will make any difference or not? I guess we'll find out tomorrow...


Ok, I'll be the one to say it.  Jim Good luck with that one!  Who's your mechanic?
Should lean on the forum when thinking of significantly different equipment than originally installed! 
What's your plan to enter a side inlet muffler with a straight down riser, and maintain the correct elevation/down slope into the muffler?

Unless a side inlet muffler is on centerline behind an engine, yah increase the probability of seawater backflow into the exhaust valves, a cylinder hydrolock, and sea water in the oil pan -- unless the flange > riser > muffler route is a "reverse loop around" (i.e. inlet on the opposite side of the engine, like the attached design worked out with Centek -- BTW this IS NOT for C34, but for a C30 exhaust layout.)

kk

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Capt.Jim

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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2016, 12:04:59 AM »

Jim : You have a leak (hose to the center of the boat- your description) on the inlet hose coming from the exhaust riser.
The most common problem is that this leak was caused by a failure from no raw water cooling!! (impeller? clogged inlet? etc? etc? etc?)  This will cause the inlet pipe in the muffler to deform and further tightening of the hose clamps may even crack the inlet.

The normal easy fix is to simply re-fiberglass the inlet tube and then also replace the 6-8" section of stiff black hose with a flexible hump hose. 
There have been other numerous discussions on fixing this problem!!

a few quick thought

First of all, thanks to all of you guys for the tremendous help you're offering.
You're an exquisite group of talent up here.

Now to the problem on hand; I don't know if I explained well but the hairline crack was at the bottom of the IN inlet where it meets the rectangular muffler body . Other than that there was no visible problem (leak) on the muffler body nor on the hoses.
Just that tiny hairline crack...
Tomorrow when I go to boat I'll take pictures and try to post here for you guys to see.

BTW I mentioned to my mechanic if the side IN will cause a problem with the riser issue and as far as I understand  he said " there is enough room to adjust the IN hose... Now finding a "hump" hose tomorrow may be a problem...
We'll see!
 
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Capt. Jim Davis
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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2016, 08:05:59 AM »

If you want a can muffler, why not just use a top in top out stainless like you have?



kk
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Capt.Jim

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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2016, 11:13:29 PM »

Today we put Centek 1500071..
Side in/Top Out model... which felt ok and my mechanic swore that it'll be OK for my boat.
He added a 90 degree elbow hose for my existing hose to meet the side inlet.
Also 90 was a hump hose kind of softy hose which he says will minimize the vibration if not eliminates it completely.


« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 11:14:28 PM by Capt.Jim »
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Capt. Jim Davis
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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2016, 12:10:49 AM »

good deal.

FYI the side entry cuts the storage volume significantly compared to the AL and other top on models, the AL squatty muffler was designed WAY oversized for that engine CID in order to store water so there's near zero chance of black flow.  The side entry also provides a DIRECT water path back into the riser when tipped (water flows right out the inlet), compared to a top-in (which traps water inside the muffler when it's tipped.)   On a powerboat this isn't much of an issue, however on a sailboat .....

I'll simply quote from centek when we went thru the effort of 'designing' the reverse entry layout to eliminate the significant risk of water backing into the riser when on a stbd heel, and leave it .... "YBYC."

Do you have a cross-sectional diagram/cut away of your side-in/top-out vernalift models versus the top-in/top-out models?    We’re doing an installation for an owner, and I presume there would be some loss in storage volume using the side in models – i.e. when heeling on a sailboat residual water could more easily back up into the riser, compared to the top-in models (where the entire muffler would have to be full in order for it to back up into the riser)?.

Unfortunately, on the Catalina 30 there’s no room to place the Vernalift in line with the engine – the muffler sits to port.

One option I could see, is to rotate the Vernalift so that the side-in fitting is facing to port (away from the engine,) and use two 90 elbows as necessary to bring it back to the riser (I don’t believe that a Centek 180 standard return will pass by the Vernalift diameter.)  I don’t believe that arrangement would increase backpressure so that it would be an issue.

Hi Ken,
Your logic is correct.





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Stu Jackson

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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2016, 07:05:38 AM »

Today we put Centek 1500071..
Side in/Top Out model... which felt ok and my mechanic swore that it'll be OK for my boat.
He added a 90 degree elbow hose for my existing hose to meet the side inlet.
Also 90 was a hump hose kind of softy hose which he says will minimize the vibration if not eliminates it completely.

Jim, could you please post a photo?  Right here, too, not on your photo topic.   I am having a great deal of difficulty understanding the side inlet geometry from the riser with a hump hose as you described.  Thanks.
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Re: muffler crack?
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2016, 07:27:13 PM »

Stu, what I suspect is, the mechanic used a silicone 9-deg elbow from the riser into the side inlet, thus the highly flexible ell being somewhat similar to a 'hump".  Nothing short of a nuclear explosion will hurt the glass-reinforced centek.

That muffler is 1-1/2" inlet and outlet -- as you know the exh hose is 1-5/8", so......... How s/he may have 'adapted' may be interesting to see.  If he really wanted to use a side inlet, he should have used 1500003, the 1-5/8" in/out model.   The replacement should have been a centek 1-5/8" top in/top out.

kk

quote author=Stu Jackson link=topic=9252.msg67995#msg67995 date=1481382338]
Today we put Centek 1500071..
Side in/Top Out model... which felt ok and my mechanic swore that it'll be OK for my boat.
He added a 90 degree elbow hose for my existing hose to meet the side inlet.
Also 90 was a hump hose kind of softy hose which he says will minimize the vibration if not eliminates it completely.

Jim, could you please post a photo?  Right here, too, not on your photo topic.   I am having a great deal of difficulty understanding the side inlet geometry from the riser with a hump hose as you described.  Thanks.
[/quote]
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
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