Mystery starter/alternator wire

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sailr4

Long story, short: wires were removed from the engine so it could be lifted. The red wire between the alternator and the starter had been removed a while back and the alternator was directly wired to the house battery. When the wires were reconnected, an orange wire was run between the alternator and the starter.  I think it is supposed to be on the starter, but does anyone know what it is supposed to connect to?

Rob
Rob Fowler,1989 C34 #889 Tall/Wing, M25XP - No Worries, Coronado, CA

I'd rather be in a boat with a drink on the rocks, than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

mark_53

The orange wire on mine was connected from the alternator output to the starter which eventually connected to the house bank. When I rewired the alternator output to the house bank I removed the orange wire.

KWKloeber

Pics of the back of your alt might help.  Could be many things - never trust a prior modification to be correct.

-kk
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

sailr4

Ill try to get a picture when I go back down this weekend.  Im pretty sure I removed the wire between the starter and alternator.  Also, the engine was hard starting due to bad connection, but when that orange wire was run back to the alternator (and direct to the battery), the engine started without hesitation. I could leave it there, but I will need to fuse it due to its small guage (looks to be 8 or 10).
Rob Fowler,1989 C34 #889 Tall/Wing, M25XP - No Worries, Coronado, CA

I'd rather be in a boat with a drink on the rocks, than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

KWKloeber

define 'hard starting'.   That can mean many different things.
A wire between the alt and starter (to the starter solenoid I presume? - to which terminal, and to which on the starter?)  will have nothing to do with starting -- potentially only with charging.  No alyt connection is used during starting.  If it is, you have electrical problems!!

-kk
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

sailr4

Finally got pictures. First is the starter.  The wire in question is the "big" orange wire.

The second picture is the alternator. The Orange wire is shown next to the output (it is taped off and not actually attached).  It was connected allong with the big red cable that runs to the battery - not right.  Any idea where it is supposed to go?

Also, "hard starting" means that I would need glow plugs to start engine hot or cold and the engine would barely turn over.  I traced the problem to the battery cable from 1-2-B to starter.  Bad terminals.
Rob Fowler,1989 C34 #889 Tall/Wing, M25XP - No Worries, Coronado, CA

I'd rather be in a boat with a drink on the rocks, than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

mark_53

Quote from: sailr4 on August 28, 2016, 07:13:00 PM
The second picture is the alternator. The Orange wire is shown next to the output (it is taped off and not actually attached).  It was connected allong with the big red cable that runs to the battery - not right.  Any idea where it is supposed to go?


If it is taped off, it is doing nothing. Get rid of it. It's a leftover from the OEM wiring that has been replaced by the new wire from the alternator output to the house bank.

sailr4

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I taped the wire off because it was connected to the wrong place.  It was not extra before I had engine work done.
Rob Fowler,1989 C34 #889 Tall/Wing, M25XP - No Worries, Coronado, CA

I'd rather be in a boat with a drink on the rocks, than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

mark_53

I can only tell where it went on my boat and hundreds of others. I suspect it was the same for yours but the previous owner left it connected but that's just a guess.  You should have an electrical schematic of your system. If you don't have one, you should make one.

KWKloeber

Rob,

The orange charge wire is just making a second connection to the battery cables. 

Before saying "trash it".....

Where does the heavy charge cable go to.....  Battery selector switch?   Directly to a battery terminal? 
What's your battery set up?  2 batteries, running through the selector switch?  A separate starting/reserve battery?
What is the other red? orange? wire on the alt?  Is that on the tach signal (A/C output) terminal?

Do you still have the gummy bear plug or did the PO remove it?  Did PO crimp the ends together or use the terminal strip "fix."?

A few other things -

1. the cabling on the solenoid "B" (battery) terminal is completely back-asswards.  The heaviest cable/lug must be against the power source (eg, battery terminal) or destination (starter solenoid) followed by successively lighter loads, wiuth the lightest on top (ie, under the nut.)

2. There should be lockwashers under both nuts.

3. If you have a barrel fuse holder on the solenoid "S" wire (yellow/red).  Remove it (it is useless and causes non-start problems) and butt crimp the ends together.

4. The "S" wire appears to be the 'old' OEM 16 gauge wire.  This contributes to non-start problems and should be 10 gauge.

5.  Your red power wire to the panel is not fused, not ABYC compliant, and a fire hazard.

6. The "S" wire quick disconnect (push-on) terminal end might be corroded and contributing to non-start problems - they also loosen and can fall off.  Remove, crimp on a tinned terminal, lightly coated with dielectric grease (better yet) replace the solenoid with a screw-post-type "S" terminal that won't fall off.

-ken
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

britinusa

Having just built a complete new harness for our M25-XP I would offer the following humble opinion,,,

  • The fist pic shows the solenoid, not the starter. It has 4 cables on the B (Battery Post) and should only have a max of 3.
  • The starter gets it's power from the Solenoid, probably a braided copper wire that goes from the starter to the solenoid
  • The Red cable is probably the +ve supply for the engine control panel and should be fused close to the Solenoid
  • The Orange Wire appears to be directly connected to the Alternator +ve (On our boat, not needed as we have a dedicated wire to the engine Master Switch and that would be non-functional if the orange cable was connected as your's is.
  • All of the terminals should be replaced. Resistance at the terminal ends are a big issue when it comes to getting current flow. They look --- yuk -- I think that's the technical name for it.


Paul
Paul & Peggy
1987 C34 Tall Rig Fin Keel - Hull # 463

See you out on the water

Engine:M25XP

sailr4

Quote from: KWKloeber on August 29, 2016, 11:41:53 AM
Rob,

The orange charge wire is just making a second connection to the battery cables. 

Before saying "trash it".....

Where does the heavy charge cable go to.....  Battery selector switch?   Directly to a battery terminal? 

The charge cable goes direct to a fused (150A) battery terminal.

What's your battery set up?  2 batteries, running through the selector switch?  A separate starting/reserve battery?

I currently have one bank of four 6V T-105's, run to the "A" selector switch.  No Reserve at the moment.

What is the other red? orange? wire on the alt?  Is that on the tach signal (A/C output) terminal?

Yes, I believe the other smaller orange wire goes to the Tach.

Do you still have the gummy bear plug or did the PO remove it?  Did PO crimp the ends together or use the terminal strip "fix."?

No more Gummies.  PO used white plastic terminal strip to "fix." Same with panel end.

A few other things -

1. the cabling on the solenoid "B" (battery) terminal is completely back-asswards.  The heaviest cable/lug must be against the power source (eg, battery terminal) or destination (starter solenoid) followed by successively lighter loads, wiuth the lightest on top (ie, under the nut.)

I actually realized that when I put the battery cable back on. I had removed to redo the lug.

2. There should be lockwashers under both nuts.

Thanks, I never knew that.  Should they be on battery terminals, too?

3. If you have a barrel fuse holder on the solenoid "S" wire (yellow/red).  Remove it (it is useless and causes non-start problems) and butt crimp the ends together.

I didn't notice any fuse holders, but I will re-examine.  Thanks.

4. The "S" wire appears to be the 'old' OEM 16 gauge wire.  This contributes to non-start problems and should be 10 gauge.

5.  Your red power wire to the panel is not fused, not ABYC compliant, and a fire hazard.

What size fuse is recommended? Should this be at the starter end or the panel end?

6. The "S" wire quick disconnect (push-on) terminal end might be corroded and contributing to non-start problems - they also loosen and can fall off.  Remove, crimp on a tinned terminal, lightly coated with dielectric grease (better yet) replace the solenoid with a screw-post-type "S" terminal that won't fall off.

Will do.  Thanks.

-ken
Rob Fowler,1989 C34 #889 Tall/Wing, M25XP - No Worries, Coronado, CA

I'd rather be in a boat with a drink on the rocks, than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

sailr4

Paul,

Thanks.  This is the type of information I am lacking.  I do plan on changing all terminals.  They are almost certain to be original 1989 wiring.
Rob Fowler,1989 C34 #889 Tall/Wing, M25XP - No Worries, Coronado, CA

I'd rather be in a boat with a drink on the rocks, than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

KWKloeber

Quote from: sailr4 on August 29, 2016, 11:56:36 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on August 29, 2016, 11:41:53 AM
Rob,

The orange charge wire is just making a second connection to the battery cables. 

Before saying "trash it".....

Where does the heavy charge cable go to.....  Battery selector switch?   Directly to a battery terminal? 

I currently have one bank of four 6V T-105's, run to the "A" selector switch.  No Reserve at the moment.

You are saying that the switch has no function?  The bank is your both start and house power? 
The battery cable on the solenoid goes to the selector switch common terminal?  If so, and you're not going to do anything more exotic with the charging system, then the orange wire is basically useless and should be removed.


No more Gummies.  PO used white plastic terminal strip to "fix." Same with panel end.


The worst of the "fix" three options - the ends should be just butt crimped together. (Or a "wire job" done to bring everything up to snuff.)


2. There should be lockwashers under both nuts.

Thanks, I never knew that.  Should they be on battery terminals, too?

ABYC no longer allows wing nuts - a nut and standard (compression type) locknut is required.


5.  Your red power wire to the panel is not fused, not ABYC compliant, and a fire hazard.

What size fuse is recommended? Should this be at the starter end or the panel end?

The lightest you can and not blow - with the OEM preheat circuit, you should be able to get away with a 20 or 25 amp ATC blade fuse.  The issue is that even 25, 30 amp is larger than some of the wiring in the harness -- but some fusing is better than none!  The fuseholder must be 10 gauge wire and within 7" of the solenoid post.  They are difficult to find, but if you can't I can mail you one.  Best to use a "lug" terminal and not a ring terminal (ring is too weak.)


-ken
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

sailr4

The switch turns my house loads on and off.  I will eventuality put my reserve battery back on.  Just need to find place to mount it.  Nothing fancy though; will led to the "B" switch and charged with Echo Charger.

I have a lot to do to get my system up to speed.  Took 5 years on my last boat, then i sold it. Boat Owner's Blues.
Rob Fowler,1989 C34 #889 Tall/Wing, M25XP - No Worries, Coronado, CA

I'd rather be in a boat with a drink on the rocks, than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.