Join the C34 Association Today!
[C34 Home] [C34Tech Notes] [C34 Tech Wiki] [Join!]
Please login or register.
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: sticker shock for dodger/bimini  (Read 11582 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jim Hardesty

  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer
  • *******
  • Karma: 10
  • Posts: 1085
    • View Profile
sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« on: September 01, 2015, 05:55:42 AM »

Just got my first estimate for dodger, bimini and connector replacement.  The canvas guy said a little over $6,000.  I've not used him before (or any other canvas maker) but he comes highly recommended by power boaters at out yacht club.  I'm getting another local quote but wanted to get an idea what others pay.
Is this price in line?   
Thanks,
Jim
Logged
Jim Hardesty
2001 MKII hull #1570 M35BC  "Shamrock"
sailing Lake Erie
from Commodore Perry Yacht Club
Erie, PA

patrice

  • Forum - Petty Officer 1st Class
  • *****
  • Karma: 3
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2015, 06:03:19 AM »

Hi,

For sure it will cost you a fortune, it is for a boat    :D

But seriously, it is in the price range. 
When you get different quote, don't just compare price, but the type of material and it's gage ( thickness ) used by them.  This make a good price difference.
Logged
_____________
Patrice
1989 MKI #970
TR, WK, M25XP
   _/)  Free Spirit
 ~~~~~~

Clay Greene

  • Forum - Chief Petty Officer
  • ******
  • Karma: 6
  • Posts: 544
    • View Profile
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2015, 06:17:46 AM »

That seems like a lot to me.  We paid in the range of $4K for our similar canvas replacement but it was a couple of years ago.  For that price, I would make sure they are using fabric similar to Seamark (Sunbrella with an extra coating underneath for additional durability and water repellency), the upgraded thread and Makrolon for the windows (not Strataglass or similar clear vinyl, which does not last nearly as long). 

You can likely find a better deal by using one of the larger non-local canvas shops and sending them your existing dodger, bimini and connector.  I have a friend who did that and was very pleased both with the results and the cost savings.  You do run the risk that something will not fit quite right and then you have to send it back to be fixed. 
Logged
1989, Hull #873, "Serendipity," M25XP, Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Stu Jackson

  • C34IA - Secretary
  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 68
  • Posts: 7508
    • View Profile
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2015, 07:04:47 AM »

Whenever someone asks what something costs, I usually/always ask: "What is included?"

We need more info to even think about commenting about the validity of any price.

For example:  Does it include the ss tubing and, if so, what size & gauge?  We don't know if you're just doing the canvas, a rebuild, new glazing...

Please help us to help you.
Logged
Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

"There is no problem so great that it can't be solved."

Jim Hardesty

  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer
  • *******
  • Karma: 10
  • Posts: 1085
    • View Profile
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2015, 07:30:45 AM »

Stu,
That was for only the canvas.  Sumbrella with Stratiglass the best thread, etc.  I'm happy with what I have, it's just 15 years old and showing it's age.  It looks like so many other dodger/bimini I wonder if it was a factory option.  Do you think a call to the factory would worth it?  Or would it not fit right?  This will be the first time for me buying canvas work.  Don't know much about  it.
Jim
Logged
Jim Hardesty
2001 MKII hull #1570 M35BC  "Shamrock"
sailing Lake Erie
from Commodore Perry Yacht Club
Erie, PA

mregan

  • Forum - Chief Petty Officer
  • ******
  • Karma: 6
  • Posts: 508
    • View Profile
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2015, 11:20:13 AM »

Jim
For just canvas I would say that is a lot.  I bought a bimini, frame and all from Catalina Direct 2 yrs ago for about $1000.  Then had a new dodger made locally, ss tubing, strataglass, connector to the bimini.  I think it cost around $4000 and the guy I use is known for being high, but he does good work.
Logged

Ron Hill

  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 52
  • Posts: 6786
    • View Profile
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2015, 03:05:38 PM »

Jim : Now you know why I had a summer cover made to keep the dodger (and teak) out of the hot sun!!

I saw no sense in the UV eating up everything while the boat was parked!!   

A thought
Logged
Ron, Apache #788

Clay Greene

  • Forum - Chief Petty Officer
  • ******
  • Karma: 6
  • Posts: 544
    • View Profile
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2015, 10:28:31 AM »

Jim, if it was me, I would get competitive quotes from JSI in Florida and a competitor like the Canvas Store.  JSI may have done your canvas originally - Catalina outsourced a lot of their canvas work to them over the years.  You may even look to see if you have a JSI tag on your dodger.  A friend had his canvas replaced by the Canvas Store over the winter and they did a great job at two-thirds the cost of a local quote.  He mailed his original canvas to them and got the replacement back in a month.  Obviously, not a possibility if you also are replacing the tubing.  I had a winter cover made by the Canvas Store and they did a great job.

I would seriously consider upgrading from Strataglass to Makrolon or something similar.  We had a Strataglass window shatter after only three years of use when a sheet snapped against it in cold weather.  A local vendor told me that Strataglass gets very brittle with age.  It also is more prone to scratching than a competitive product like Makrolon. 
Logged
1989, Hull #873, "Serendipity," M25XP, Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Fuzzy

  • Forum - Petty Officer 2nd Class
  • ****
  • Karma: 0
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2015, 07:53:08 AM »

I was quoted a price of $5500 for a new dodger, bimini and complete enclosure by a local canvas guy.
Logged
Larry G. Trumble
East Jordan, MI
Katarina
1987 #475

Fred Koehlmann

  • Forum - Petty Officer 1st Class
  • *****
  • Karma: 6
  • Posts: 313
    • View Profile
    • blog.koehlmann.ca
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2015, 09:33:18 AM »

For a little more than that we had the dodger and Bimini replaced, with new frame, plus enclosure, two to years ago. For just canvass, even installed is pricey. IMHO
Logged
Frederick Koehlmann: Dolphina - C425 #3, Midland, ON
PO: C34 #1602, M35BC engine

RV61

  • Forum - Petty Officer 1st Class
  • *****
  • Karma: 1
  • Posts: 216
    • View Profile
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2015, 10:29:53 AM »

We paid $4500 for new dodger ,connector, bimini and  zib in stern sunshade with all new framing and dodger hand holds 3 or 4 years ago.
Logged
Rick V
Interlude
1986 Hull #237
Lake Erie

Jim Hardesty

  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer
  • *******
  • Karma: 10
  • Posts: 1085
    • View Profile
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2015, 11:06:41 AM »

Rick,
Who did the work?  I assume it was around Lake Erie.
Jim
Logged
Jim Hardesty
2001 MKII hull #1570 M35BC  "Shamrock"
sailing Lake Erie
from Commodore Perry Yacht Club
Erie, PA

RV61

  • Forum - Petty Officer 1st Class
  • *****
  • Karma: 1
  • Posts: 216
    • View Profile
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2015, 06:18:47 AM »

Jim,
Rick Ball out of Port Clinton did the work 937-478-4434. He did a great job however I had to wait almost a year for him to start as he was in high demand. I spoke to him the other day and he is doing more AC and frig work as it is better profit per hour. If you want to see his work our Boat is at Herls Harbor #619 on Catawba Port Clinton . Note my wife made the enclosure. 
Logged
Rick V
Interlude
1986 Hull #237
Lake Erie

mainesail

  • Forum - Chief Petty Officer
  • ******
  • Karma: 37
  • Posts: 665
    • View Profile
    • MarineHowTo.com
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2015, 07:56:26 AM »

Unlike many things on a boat canvas work is an "arts" trade. Most canvas work is of absurdly low caliber and can severyly detract from the aesthetics of the vessel. Sad but true.

Canvas is also one of the ares where you as a buyer need to 150% do your home work and compare apples to apples. There are LOTS and LOTS of ways to cut corners on canvas work, and most will do that, unless you go in with a very, very specific specification. A good canvas job can easily last 12-18 years and a bad canvas job can be toast in 4-5 years...

Thread - Do not accept anything less than WL Gore Tenera. If your canvas guy balks at this you WALK. Tenara is not easy to work with and only the best canvas guys will be extremely proficient with it.

Tubing - Only heavy walled (.065" min) 316 SS tube should be used. Lots of shops will substitute crappy 304 thin wall. It makes it extremely difficult to atttain a proper fit and shape with thin walled tube.

Windows - Strataglass or equivalent at a bare minimum but preferably EZ2CY or Makrolon double sided abrasion resistant...

Fittings - 100% 316 SS. Double set screw types are preferred but most will source the cheaper single set screw product.

Zipper - While these don't sound glorious there are differences and many unscrupulous shops will use cheap non UV zippers in place of YKK UV or Lenzip UV resistant zippers.

Support Struts - These are very, very good options to go with. Front bow supports keep tension on the window and prevent creases, sagging etc. and also hold shape. A good shop will always use adjustable eye ends so proper tension can be maintained for the life of the product. Coaming struts come from the aft bow to the cockpit coaming and aft tension the dodger. Again these will use adjustable eye ends.

Snaps, Lift-A-Dots, Twist Locks or Luff Track - To get the optimal canvas shape the preferred method of attaching the dodger to the deck, on the cabin top, is to use luff track. This gives even tension across the entire window and prevents creases in the glass and canvas.

Zip Off Side Curtains - This type of dodger is often referred to as a "California" style. They allow open air access without needing to "fold" the canvas. Folding canvas is the absorlute worst thing you can do for it. A good design eliminates the need to fold. We have NEVER ONCE folded, or needed to remove, any of our custom made dodgers. A good canvas guy will make you a fleece lined storage back so teh window can remain flat, never rolled, and store under a berth cushion when not in use.

Fully articulating middle front window - A good canvas guy can make a middle window that folds 180 degrees and lays flat on-top of the dodger when open. Again no rolling & no potential for scratches. A budget shop will give you a roll up window...

Welded Grab Bar - Another nice feature is a welded grab rail across the aft bow. To take it up a notch baseball stitched leather covering... Expensive but also very time consuming to fabricate, weld and polish.

Suede or Stamoid Reinforcement points - In areas of high hand touching suede or Stamoid will be used.

Custom vs. Pattern - Hands down a custom made dodger, by a good canvas guy, will win every time but will also be more expensive. Why is custom so expensive?

   Trip #1 - Meet with owner and discuss needs and use and make suggestions and offer options and pros and cons. Take initial measurements then head back to shop to manufacturer, bend and crown the frame. A good guy will match the crown and cabin rake of your your boats profiles. A hack will use what ever radius he likes to use.

   Trip#2 - Show up with frame and mount frame. Pattern for canvas. If too windy this requires another trip.

   Trip #3 - Return to vessel with dodger, & bimini, if so ordered, and install. If fit is not absolutely perfect it goes back to the shop for some tweaking.

   Trip #4 - Install canvas and fit dodger and bimini to perfection. A good bimini or dodger will NOT use straps to hold it up or tension it. A low budget job uses straps. Floppy loose fitting canvas wears and degrades faster!! Pattern for connector and side curtains, if so ordered. This step CAN NOT be done with any level of quality until the bimini and dodger have been fitted, tensioned and installed.

   Trip #5 - GO back to shop and manufacture the connector and side curtains and or enclosure.

   Trip #6 - Go back to boat and install, fit and tension connector and side curtains or enclosure.



A quality job, by a canvas artist, for a bimini, connector and dodger will consume in the neighborhood of 80+ man hours not including travel time. Quality materials are also not inexpensive....


Rant:

Our 2005 Catalina 310 had JSI factory canvas and, IMHO, it was a complete budget level substandard product.. It cost me $1400.00 in modifications (brand new boat mind you) to get it to a somewhat presentable quality and this included many hours of physical thread removal and re-stitching adding support struts etc. and even then the thread, windows and overall quality were barely up to budget level..... Rant off....

If you want to see some quality canvas work:

 Iversons

Mobile Marine Canvas

With proper care a good quality product will LAST..

These are our windows as of this June at year 7..







« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 09:30:18 AM by Stu Jackson »
Logged
-Maine Sail
Casco Bay, ME
Boat - CS-36T

https://marinehowto.com/

Jim Hardesty

  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer
  • *******
  • Karma: 10
  • Posts: 1085
    • View Profile
Re: sticker shock for dodger/bimini
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2015, 08:51:08 AM »

Mainesail,
Thanks for the canvas tutorial.  Very much appreciated.  Still have a couple of questions.

My existing canvas goes around the bows and to a zipper.  No snaps into the stainless tubing. The canvas guys want to use snaps into the bows.  To me this doesn't feel to be the best way.  Is one way better than the other?

Do I understand you correctly that your front center window folds up over and stays on the top of the dodger? 

I thought canvas replacement would be an simple job.  One of the few things I don't want to do myself.  Boy was I wrong  :shock: need to learn so much.  

Jim

« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 09:03:46 AM by Jim Hardesty »
Logged
Jim Hardesty
2001 MKII hull #1570 M35BC  "Shamrock"
sailing Lake Erie
from Commodore Perry Yacht Club
Erie, PA
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up