Join the C34 Association Today!
[C34 Home] [C34Tech Notes] [C34 Tech Wiki] [Join!]
Please login or register.
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation  (Read 5032 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Fred Koehlmann

  • Forum - Petty Officer 1st Class
  • *****
  • Karma: 6
  • Posts: 311
    • View Profile
    • blog.koehlmann.ca
Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« on: May 28, 2014, 02:10:35 PM »

I didn't want to highjack Roger's cutlass bearing issue, so I thought I would start anew. Dolphina has a bronze shaft with the three prop 15x9 propeller and what seems like maybe the original shaft bushing from Catalina (built 2002). Luck us it has set screws. There was some play between the shaft and the bearing (more than other boats sitting in cradles around me) and I noticed some minor cracks in the skeg just above, so I though to play it safe I would have the marina put a new bushing in place before launch.

Unfortunately this has become something of a nightmare. First they could get the nut off. When I went up last weekend the nut was off, but the aft section of the shaft looked a bit bent and there was an offset dimple in the end of the shaft. Now they couldn't get the prop off (and I'm guessing the offset dimple was from whatever tool they were using). Today I got a phone call, saying that they can't get the bearing out with their tool, and they wan to take the shaft off to get at the bearing to cut it out! So what they estimated as originally a two hour job is now over six hours.

Am I looking at an incompetent work crew, and am getting screwed? Are these guys not doing something right? Is it possible that everything is really this difficult? I'm expecting them to want to drop the rudder next, since from what I read on this site, the shaft can only get clear if the bearing is already out. Also should I be looking at replacing the shaft now with a stainless one? If so how badly does that ding me in my wallet? Any other recommendations?

Much thanks, Fred.
Logged
Frederick Koehlmann: Dolphina - C425 #3, Midland, ON
PO: C34 #1602, M35BC engine

Ron Hill

  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 52
  • Posts: 6710
    • View Profile
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2014, 02:57:40 PM »

Fred : Here is what I suspect happened.  
The yard may have used a 2 pronged prop puller? or the 3 pronged puller they used had sharp pointed prongs?  One prong was set too close to the keyway slot and when they tried to pull the prop that prong dug in to the bronze hub by the keyway - compressing the key and the way!! BTY, a 2 pronged puller on a 3 bladed prop tends to bend the shaft end!

Got to be careful when pulling a prop - an under statement!!  Hope this helps
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 03:04:13 PM by Ron Hill »
Logged
Ron, Apache #788

Roc

  • Forum - Chief Petty Officer
  • ******
  • Karma: 5
  • Posts: 989
    • View Profile
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2014, 03:42:38 AM »

Hi Fred,
It probably would be best if you did switch to a stainless shaft.  Unfortunately, I would be suspect in having that yard do the work.  Do they allow outside contractors?
Logged
Roc - "Sea Life" 2000 MKII #1477.  Rock Hall, MD

Fred Koehlmann

  • Forum - Petty Officer 1st Class
  • *****
  • Karma: 6
  • Posts: 311
    • View Profile
    • blog.koehlmann.ca
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2014, 07:59:45 AM »

I spoke with the marina last night, and they were talking about using some sort of hammer tool so that they could get the shaft flange off (because is was also "stuck" to the shaft). They would disconnect it from the engine so that the hammering wouldn't affect the engine, and when I asked "what about the stuffing box", they replied that they would "block the flange". So I guess the hull would take the brunt of the hammering. Oh, they would still need to remove the rudder to get the hammer on.

Personally I am surprised that bronze and stainless would fit so tightly together that it wouldn't come apart, but I'm not there to watch unfortunately. For now I've asked them to provide me with two quotes: 1) One to do it this labour intensive way that they propose. I just think that there are too many things that could go wrong. 2) Or two, cut the shaft, get it out. Cut the bearing out, and then put in a new shaft and bearing. I figure this way there is less labour involved and they only end up touching the items that need fixing. (I'm asking for costs on both bronze and stainless.)

What are the pros/cons of bronze and stainless shafts? Why would I go with one or the other?
Also, after this, I figure I'm going to need them to also re-align the shaft/engine.

As for outside contractors, they are only allowed in, if they work through the marina. Apparently this is an insurance issue. This however would not stop you from bringing in a buddy to help out, however we live almost 200 km away from the boat, so its not easy to just get up there and do some work. I am resigned to letting them do the labour intensive stuff, so that we can enjoy the boat on the weekends (at least that is the plan).

Logged
Frederick Koehlmann: Dolphina - C425 #3, Midland, ON
PO: C34 #1602, M35BC engine

Stu Jackson

  • C34IA - Secretary
  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 68
  • Posts: 7446
    • View Profile
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2014, 09:10:30 AM »

Frederick, my read of you travails with those "Butchers of the Boatyard" make me believe they haven't read Maine Sail's material at all.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/new_shaft

Part of that article says:

Only hacks, that don't care about your boat or gear box, use slide hammers to remove prop shafts from the couplings when the couplings are attached to the gear.. Yes it's quick & dirty, and the damage to your gear box can largely goes unseen, for a period of time, but DO NOT be fooled by yard monkeys with slide hammers and do not allow a yard to use one on your boat. Would you go to a dentist who used a Milwuakee Sawzall???? About the same level of stupidity and it is the WRONG TOOL FOR THE JOB.

Just one of many.  He has a great photo tutorial of removing the CB, too.  That link also includes matching new shafts and couplings, and split couplings.  Also answers your ? about ss vs. bronze shafts.

I live just 20 minutes away from our boatyard, and fully understand the limitations imposed on your situation with that distance.

But it may well be worth your while to take a few vacation days, bring your laptop with you, and show those jokers how it should be done properly.  While I don't have any specific ideas as to how it should be done personally, I'd listen to Ron Hill and Maine Sail before I let those guys touch your boat again.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 09:18:50 AM by Stu Jackson »
Logged
Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

"There is no problem so great that it can't be solved."

Roc

  • Forum - Chief Petty Officer
  • ******
  • Karma: 5
  • Posts: 989
    • View Profile
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2014, 09:18:26 AM »

Fred,
I suggest since the bronze shaft is probably toast right now, don't bother with a bronze but go with a stainless shaft.  Stainless is much more rigid and does not "whip" as much, keeping it more in line and true.
Logged
Roc - "Sea Life" 2000 MKII #1477.  Rock Hall, MD

mainesail

  • Forum - Chief Petty Officer
  • ******
  • Karma: 37
  • Posts: 655
    • View Profile
    • MarineHowTo.com
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2014, 10:58:04 AM »

Bronze shafts have been long gone. The replacement you should DEMAND is Aqualoy 22 by Western Branch metals or Aquamet 22. (Same basic composition) Most any "reputable" prop shop will already be using AQ-22 shafting. I would not settle for anything less. Many shops with budget pricing are using 316SS and this is a HUGE NO NO......

DO NOT EVER, EVER, EVER let a yard mechanic use a slide hammer to remove a coupling from a shaft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is dumber than ten pounds of dumb....


Cut the bronze and call it a day. It is NOT uncommon for a press tool to not be able to press out an old bearing especially if any galvanic damage has occurred. A properly fit prop also requires the right prop puller and some HEAT......

Sound like you need:

AQ-22 Shaft
Fitted & Face Coupling (properly fitted & faced)
Lap Fit Prop to New Shaft
New Cutlass
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 07:43:43 PM by mainesail »
Logged
-Maine Sail
Casco Bay, ME
Boat - CS-36T

https://marinehowto.com/

karista

  • Forum - Petty Officer 2nd Class
  • ****
  • Karma: 3
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2014, 11:02:36 AM »

I just inquired for the cost of a stainless 1" DIA, 57" long shaft and same bronze shaft at www.generalpropellor.com
they responded that they no longer provide bronze shafts. Their price for a complete shaft and new matching coupling was $347!
They further said that for pleasure boats their shaft material is AQ19.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 11:19:55 AM by karista »
Logged
Bernd, 1990- Hull 1012, Tierra Verde, Fl

Fred Koehlmann

  • Forum - Petty Officer 1st Class
  • *****
  • Karma: 6
  • Posts: 311
    • View Profile
    • blog.koehlmann.ca
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2014, 11:13:29 AM »

Thanks Guys,

Thanks Maine Sail, you have basically verbalized what I was wondering about the SS vs bronze. I was looking at your site and saw you refer to "Aqualoy 22" as a preferred alloy (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/139144123). Can I assume that it and Aquamet 22 are basically the same thing, just different brands?

I haven't heard back yet from the marina with regards to the quotes, but was already leaning towards cut and replace, since then I would be assured that they would be not touching the rudder or doing any other aggressive acts. I've also noted your notes about new shafts and press fitting and spotting the shaft. I probably should give them the link to your site (spread the knowledge  :thumb:). I assume your OK with that.  
Logged
Frederick Koehlmann: Dolphina - C425 #3, Midland, ON
PO: C34 #1602, M35BC engine

Stu Jackson

  • C34IA - Secretary
  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 68
  • Posts: 7446
    • View Profile
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2014, 12:36:31 PM »

I probably should give them the link to your site (spread the knowledge  :thumb:). I assume your OK with that.  

That's why I suggested you bring your laptop!   :D :D :D
Logged
Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

"There is no problem so great that it can't be solved."

Fred Koehlmann

  • Forum - Petty Officer 1st Class
  • *****
  • Karma: 6
  • Posts: 311
    • View Profile
    • blog.koehlmann.ca
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 10:18:43 AM »

It seems that the Aquamet 22 is not readily available in the Midland area and they would not be able to get it in time to be able to launch me this weekend. Since I'm in fresh water, what do other fresh water sailors have as grade for their stainless shafts? What sort of minimum should I be looking at? For some reason I think he mentioned a 301 grade of stainless for a shaft. Does that make any sense?

I've looked at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_steel_grades and see that the entire 3xxx range is some sort of nickel-chromium steel. I also looked at the http://www.aquamet.com/gradecomparison.nxg site, and learned that the "AQUAMET 19 is a modified Type 304 stainless steel". So in the Great Lakes is the lower grade a reasonable way to go? Basically I want to get the boat in the water, but still want to make sure that the time and money is well invested.


Logged
Frederick Koehlmann: Dolphina - C425 #3, Midland, ON
PO: C34 #1602, M35BC engine

lazybone

  • Forum - Chief Petty Officer
  • ******
  • Karma: 13
  • Posts: 679
    • View Profile
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2014, 12:46:46 PM »

Is there anyone here who can visually tell the difference between stainless steel and Aquamet, Aqualoy, Aqualung or any of the other proprietary names?

How does one tell what alloy the yard has used after you have made your well intentioned, well-informed, upgraded, more expensive request?

The size of the bill should be reassuring.

Logged
Ciao tutti


S/V LAZYBONES  #677

Stu Jackson

  • C34IA - Secretary
  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 68
  • Posts: 7446
    • View Profile
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2014, 01:30:18 PM »

Aldo, there's a tad of trust involved, even with Aqualungs.   :abd:
Logged
Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

"There is no problem so great that it can't be solved."

lazybone

  • Forum - Chief Petty Officer
  • ******
  • Karma: 13
  • Posts: 679
    • View Profile
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2014, 01:33:08 PM »

"Trust your boatyard"

It should be written on our money.
Logged
Ciao tutti


S/V LAZYBONES  #677

Stu Jackson

  • C34IA - Secretary
  • Forum - Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
  • ********
  • Karma: 68
  • Posts: 7446
    • View Profile
Re: Another Cutlass Bearing Situation
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2014, 02:07:43 PM »

Too bad there's no an emoticon for spitting coffee on my keyboard!   :clap :clap :clap
Logged
Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

"There is no problem so great that it can't be solved."
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up