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Author Topic: Jib Size Selection  (Read 10810 times)

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Stu Jackson

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Re: Jib Size Selection
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2016, 07:55:12 AM »

<snip>......................I originally inquired on this thread about adding one to my existing sail, and received this response which had me looking for a totally new sail:
1.  Does a luff pad (foam or rope) work well with this boat?
2.  Or should I be looking at a new smaller headsail for early spring/late fall sailing? If so, what size?
1.  Has nothing to do with the boat and everything to do with the sail.  In many cases, if the sail isn't made for it, a luff pad won't help, and if the sail is so big that you need a deep reef, a pad won't help anyway.
2.  The whole purpose of this entire thread was...???   :D :D :D
So at the risk of making this thread go around in circles, if you have a different opinion of what I should do please make a specific recommendation.

In joining you to negate the risk of a circular firing squad  :shock:  it seems to me that we could examine your selected quotes a tad more.

You asked if the jib had anything to do with the boat or vice versa.  Answer remains no.  At least based on how you asked originally.

You asked about foam luffs and whether they could be added.  Unless you can get a qualified sailmaker to tell you otherwise, the answer remains no because adding the foam or rope at the luff affects the sail material at said luff and should be built into the sail in the first place.

You asked about this thread going around in circles.  I submit that running a 150% could well get you running around in circles.   :D :D :D

As I said in my first reply way back when, the entire purpose of this topic was to explain the advantages of smaller headsails over the huge gigundous genoas many skippers have been running over the years. 

I did NOT write a lot of that content in that link, but merely provided it for thought since this issue comes up so often, so very, very often.  I also, IIRC, explained my pleasure and reasons for the small(er) headsails I have successfully been using for the past 18 years.  There is competing evidence that smaller headsails are not always slower and that bigger headsails are not always faster, in addition to the issue of the variety of wind speeds in which the smaller headsails can be flown safely.

And, like anything else in life, if you ask ten folks down your street what the right lawnmower is for you, you'll get ten or maybe even twelve different answers.  Gee, kinda like boating... :D

Your question was, and remains, "What size new genoa should I get for my boat?"

We have provided you with different points of view from the advantages and disadvantages (some perceived and some real) of both points of view.

You know where you are going to sail  So do we.  But only YOU know how you intend to sail.

This, then, truly reflects the concept of

Your boat, your choice.  :D

Again, good luck on your final choice.
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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Breakin Away

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Re: Jib Size Selection
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2016, 08:33:10 AM »

I am not criticizing anything that anyone has posted. And my selection of quotes was not meant to take anything out of context - just to remind others (and myself) where I am coming from with my additional questions.

I do invite even more opinions from anyone who has not spoken up yet, especially those sailing in the Chesapeake. I learn from everything that is posted (and the prior threads that I have seen), so it's all good.

At this point I am unsure what to do, and that uncertainty may likely end up leading me to do nothing and spend another year with what I have.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 09:29:45 AM by Breakin Away »
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KWKloeber

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Re: Jib Size Selection
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2016, 09:09:44 AM »


Does a luff pad (foam or rope) work well with this boat? Or should I be looking at a new smaller headsail for early spring/late fall sailing? If so, what size?


breakin',

Let me put my $.02 this way, for any boat -- not specifically a C-34, and as in most tings in life, it all "depends". 
It depends on what performance you are expecting for the money you want to spend.

Put it this way -- a huge reefed headsail is the worst of both worlds.  You will never see a racer (except in an emergency) reef the headsail - they will switch it out.  Foam luffs were not invented for performance reasons -- they are for less cost and hassle.  But likewise, how much performance do you expect?  And how much loss in performance can you tolerate if you're leisurely cruising and hitting that last 1/2 knot isn't critical?  Only you can answer that questions!  Surrender your Visa and we can get you the best performing suit of sails!

k
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Ron Hill

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Re: Jib Size Selection
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2016, 03:00:07 PM »

Breaking : As Stu mentioned Talk to Sailmakers.  That's what I did and had the sail was made to my specs. and as I said the shape is fine when rolled in.  I don't believe that you can economically install a foam luff in an existing sail - best to just have a new one made.
I believe that the whole idea of a foam luff is to maintain sail shape when rolled in. 

There was mention about sailing on the genoa alone.  Have done that many a time and it works just fine.

A few thoughts
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 03:01:37 PM by Ron Hill »
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DaveBMusik

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Re: Jib Size Selection
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2016, 03:57:49 PM »

I would err on the smaller side. A large headsail furled just causes turbulence and you lose flow across the main. A smaller sail may not have the pull but the flow remains efficient.
As the wind comes up, you want a flatter sail (like an airplane wing with the flaps closed). Furling a large headsail causes more of a belly at a time when you want less.
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Dave Burgess
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Hugh17

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Re: Jib Size Selection
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2017, 01:55:28 PM »

I've read the posts and don't think anyone has mentioned the weight of the sail cloth pertaining to the size genoa referenced. My Hull #299 came to me with a 122% genoa that I'd guess is 6-8 ounces. I think the weight of the cloth is good for that size sail.

I was given a 135% genoa from a Catalina 350 and I had it cut down to maximum luff size to fit my rig and it calculates to around a 150%. I think the cloth is 6-8 ounces also. I've campaigned in club races and cruised with both the 122% and the 150% and have concluded that the 150% is too heavy for light air conditions and too big for moderate to heavy air. The strongest conditions I've raced in were 30-35mph and I attempted to furl the 150%. It basically sailed like crap for all points other than downwind. Frankly, I was just happy to get back to the dock without breaking anything.

My thinking is that a 150% genoa needs to be  made of 3-4 ounce material and only used for light air conditions. Thoughts?

As far as those who mentioned sailing with genoa alone in heavy air I agree. My C34 has the stock rudder and the boat develops a significant weather helm in heavy air. I've have only used a single reef when racing in heavy air but I'm convinced that a double reef would be better in most heavy wind conditions. Thoughts?

Thanks!
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James H. Newsome
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mark_53

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Re: Jib Size Selection
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2017, 02:16:26 PM »

I've read the posts and don't think anyone has mentioned the weight of the sail cloth pertaining to the size genoa referenced. My Hull #299 came to me with a 122% genoa that I'd guess is 6-8 ounces. I think the weight of the cloth is good for that size sail.

I was given a 135% genoa from a Catalina 350 and I had it cut down to maximum luff size to fit my rig and it calculates to around a 150%. I think the cloth is 6-8 ounces also. I've campaigned in club races and cruised with both the 122% and the 150% and have concluded that the 150% is too heavy for light air conditions and too big for moderate to heavy air. The strongest conditions I've raced in were 30-35mph and I attempted to furl the 150%. It basically sailed like crap for all points other than downwind. Frankly, I was just happy to get back to the dock without breaking anything.

My thinking is that a 150% genoa needs to be  made of 3-4 ounce material and only used for light air conditions. Thoughts?

As far as those who mentioned sailing with genoa alone in heavy air I agree. My C34 has the stock rudder and the boat develops a significant weather helm in heavy air. I've have only used a single reef when racing in heavy air but I'm convinced that a double reef would be better in most heavy wind conditions. Thoughts?

Thanks!

I never measured my genoa but the PO tells me it's a 150%.  The material is quite thick and a waffle pattern.  I'd have to agree the 150% 's performance decreases with each wrap.  That's true of any furled head sail and material thickness plays a big part. The thing I do like is when single handed, it is much easier to sail with genoa only since I don't have to mess the the main.  In fact, the main doesn't add much performance when the genoa is out.  I'll do 6-7 knots in 12-15mph winds with jib only.
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Paulus

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Re: Jib Size Selection
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2017, 05:03:30 AM »

Breaking:  I had a new 150 made by a local sailmaker here in Muskegon.  Talked to him and told him what I needed.  Made a 150 with a foam pad for reefing.  Very pleased.  Stu and Ron are right on.  I would add that it is helpful if the sailmaker sails and knows the weather conditions in your region.
Paul
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Breakin Away

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Re: Jib Size Selection
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2017, 06:34:46 AM »

My inquiry was from last year. My ultimate decision was to go with a 135 with foam luff. It has served me well this season. I purchased from Bacon Sails in Annapolis (who uses the same overseas loft as Quantum), and they did a good job at a fair price.

In comparison, the 150 that came with my boat was not a particularly good design choice. Just as Hugh17 observed, it was too heavy cloth for light air, and too big and unmanageable for moderate air. I might consider an asym someday, but in the meantime if the air is dead I just motor. I'm not a racer, so I'm not going to be DQed for running the motor.
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scgunner

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Re: Jib Size Selection
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2017, 07:56:58 AM »

      Sails are like surfboards, sit down with your sail maker/ shaper and tell him how you sail/ surf and what you want and he will deliver a product you will be happy with. When I was racing my sail maker built me a 155% deck sweeper, in the generally light air around Long Beach, CA it was awesome! Later when I was done racing I went with a slightly smaller(150%)jib that was cut higher for better visibility and a little more manageable while out for a day sail.
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