Fuel Cells for Onboard Power

[Indian Falls]

Nice Job Steve...  I really stirred some thought there!

About comparisons, maybe using the energy in .5 gal of diesel is better. Since we all know we all can run about an hour on .5gal of diesel which would be 20kw/hr.  There is no info available as to the demands and current use of the Solomon Electric Wheel and controller system, just that you need 12 dedicated 12 volt batteries to gen 144vdc for the controller.  It is a regenerative system so if at any time the boat makes the prop turn it puts dc back in the bank.   The general consensus on elec propulsion is diesel gen-set for anything over a few hours.   Sure looks like sailing is not ready for all electric at this time.   But I like the possibility of a still on board... 

[waterdog]

I love the idea of electric propulsion / hybrid sailboats, but when I look at Yachtworld and see that people selling their hybrid Lagoon cats point out factory conversion back to normal diesels as a selling feature, it tells me the technology isn't quite there yet.   I even wanted an electric vehicle, but when I crunched the numbers on a Nissan Leaf, it didn't pass the stupid test without a huge government subsidy which wasn't available here.   Ended up buying a VW TDI.   Now I love both my diesels...

[efhughes3]

Electric cars don't pass the test, even if one were to qualify for a subsidy. The fact they need subsidies to sell them is the first part of a failing grade. IMO.

[Mike and Joanne Stimmler]

Steve,  I'm glad to hear that you like your VW TDI. I curently have a VW Jetta and I love it but it's not a TDI and I'm considering trading up one. How long have you had it?

[waterdog]

I'll drop you a note...

[Indian Falls]

I found this research concerning electric cars, after reading this... I'd rather sail 270 miles at 5mph for free.

*Cost to operate a Chevy Volt*:

Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test
drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors.

For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25
miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.
Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran
on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the
16 kWh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to
drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the
battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip
your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kWh of
electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.

The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I
looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kWh.

16 kWh x $1.16 per kWh = $18.56 to charge the battery.

$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to
operate the Volt using the battery.

Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that
gets 32 mpg.

$3.75 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.117 per mile.

The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs
$46,000.

Summary:  You'll pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more than
7 times as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across
country.

[efhughes3]

^^^^My point exactly when I said electric cars don't pass the test. The Leaf isn't any better, and it doesn't have a gas engine to fall back on to get you home. I'll give that much to the Volt. But, much of the public, the media and many politicians love talking about electric cars-yet nobody ever seems to call BS.

You can find a number of small gasoline cars that get 35mpg or better, it would seem that working toward improvements there, is really the most bang for the R&D buck. Unless we get some kind of breakthrough on fuel cells or other alternative.

[Stu Jackson]

Have any of you seen "Who Killed the Electric Car?"  Wasn't that long ago.

And there are folks here from Texas who have to travel hundreds of miles for dinner, while some of us in City country can use an all-electric car for that purpose.  Then there's dem hybrids.

Different strokes..., but no reason to think that one size fits all.

[waterdog]

$1.16 per kWh?   I pay $0.065 per kWh.   Allowing for charging efficiency, less than $2 to fill a 25kWh lithium pack on a Leaf.   Even in California or New York it can't be much more than $4.   Gas only mileage on a Volt is 35MPG.   And if you buy an electric car, you go with a level 2 charger and fill it up in 4 hours.   If you were driving across the country you would drive not stop to charge.  This seems like funny math to me...  

But I did have a colleague drive from downtown in a Volt to take me out to a test lab.  he was going to impress me with the electric car.  By the time he got around picking me up 40km into his driving day, he ran out of electric juice.   Range is seriously limited on electric.   

[Les Luzar]

I'm sticking with my M25XP at .5 Gal per hour (25 years old) and my 2001 Toyota Camry at 27 mpg average (243,000 miles), and still ticking. But I'd rather be sailing!

[Bobg]

how does so many people know so much, mind boggling, all these figures,  sometimes I feel like I am in the first grade. my 1kw honda does everything I want, and my 98 escort gets 35 mpg now if I could get my dinghy to double as a road vehicle when in port, I would have everything I need

[Indian Falls]

I didn't do all that figuring just copied the info...

I live 1 hour from Niagara Falls and I pay .11c kw/hr.  .065c kw/hr is almost free!

Here's how to solve the electric car distance problem:

Electric cars will use a standard battery pack that installs in the bottom of the car, truck, suv, etc.

When you buy an electric vehicle you'll also need to purchase a battery pack.  Much like when you buy a new gas grill with a new propane tank.

Gas stations will have a rotating battery charging bank that is automated, working with the standard battery packs.

You pull into a fuel station, park over the "battery exchanger", swipe your credit card and the first battery pack slides out and a freshly charged one is automatically slid into the receptacle in the bottom of your vehicle. 

You pay for charging, maintenance and system operation costs with your purchase of the recharged battery pack exchange.

The pack pulled from your car goes into the que to recharge, and some 5-10 hours later it ends up in another vehicle.  In some ways it's similar to exchanging empty propane tanks for full ones. 

Cost associated??  well if electricity is only .10c kw/hour that's 1.60 for 25 miles in the GM Volt.  Until they make these larger and a bit more efficient this idea is not practical either. Add to the $1.60 the profit margin for the operator, battery maintenance and replacement costs and operating costs of the automated pack swapping/charging system and you're likely back up the same operating cost for electric as gasoline    --   4-5$ for 30 or so miles at current efficiencies. 

This way you can at least drive across the country anywhere you can currently find a fuel station. 

Personally, I think we should stick with oil.  In another 10 years the auto will be another 25% efficient we'll use even less oil and we won't be wasting hard earned tax dollars on idiot green spending sprees that will never amount to anything but feel good projects and political footballs.  You'll never deliver goods from one end of this country to the other with electricity nor will wind and solar amount to anything as long as homes have 200 amp service panels.
The US and Canada are purported to have more oil than the middle east.  We should just keep on keepin' on, and while we're keepin' on for the next 200 years I'm certain a "discovery" will come along that would obsolete oil consumption for fuel, or maybe not!  How clean and efficient would the internal combustion engine be in another 200 years!?