Weeping Rudder - Next steps.........

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bob K

Several findings have me wondering what to do next.....  the rudder showed weeping with rust stains when the boat was pulled several weeks ago.  This week I drilled a few inspection holes in the sides of the rudder, and when I found water, I drilled quite a few more.  Black gooey water and muck drained out of several of the holes in one area.  Some dripped a bit of clear water surrounding the black water, but by and large the rest of the rudder foam was dry.   I'm guessing the foam decomposed in this one area, causing the void and black stuff.   I never did see any rusty water drain out, but it is possible it was in there with the black stuff.   The void is not too large, maybe an inch or two wide, and 6" vertical, located port side alongside the rudder shaft.  Starboard side is almost all dry.   
I also found the black water when I pumped the standing water out of the rudder tube from topside.
The next finding was when I dropped the rudder to get a look at the shaft where it enters the rudder.  I saw corrosion around the shaft which appears to be surface, but difficult to tell.    Photos of the shaft corrosion and drain holes are attached.

So I am debating my next moves, and if I should be considering a new rudder or not. 

Next step I am considering is to gently drill into the corroded areas of  the shaft  to see how deep the corrosion is.  Will need to do in several areas around the shaft.   If  I see clean metal without drilling far, I suppose I am OK, and have not compromised shaft strength. 

I will also see what has drained out of the holes in the two weeks since drilling them.  Also am considering (but really don't want to do) using a hole saw to remove a 3" portion of the skin where the void is so I can inspect the shaft and internal steel plate for corrosion.   But based on prior postings (no known stock/plate separation failures), I am not sure this is necessary.

I am looking for comments from anyone else who went through this, as well as suggestions/improvements to my next steps.   Did anyone else see black water/goo?  Does my shaft corrosion look bad?  Maybe they all look that way after 20 years? 
And last, I hate to ask........has anyone purchased a new rudder lately?  Latest price I found in a search of this forum was close to $2200 plus shipping in 2009.  Yikes.    Thanks in advance for your help ....
Bob K
Prosit
1992 #1186
Northern Chesapeake Bay

Ralph Masters

There is a very good article with pictures and everything on how to remove the skin of the rudder, dry the inside out, inspect the metal inside and then reapply a new skin of the outside of the rudder.  Do a search, and you may have to try several different searches to get the wording right, and this should help.  This is of course you have the time to do the work, like if you have the boat hauled for the winter.  Otherwise the $2200 might be a good route to take, then fix the leaky one and post it for sale.
Ralph
Ciao Bella
Ralph Masters
Ciao Bella
San Diego
Hull 367, 1987

Ken Juul

I think the hole saw, with a real short guide drill is probably a good way to to.  Clean the bad stuff out.  You probably want to pull the rudder so you can lay it flat do do the work.  I would also clean the area where the shaft goes into the rudder.  I would do the clean up, then leave it in the basement, heated garage, or closet until spring to really let it dry out.  Then finish the repair and reseal the shaft.

Once you have it out, I would use a file rather than a drill the investigate the corrosion on the shaft.
Ken & Vicki Juul
Luna Loca #1090
Chesapeake Bay
Past Commodore C34IA

Ron Hill

Bob : I understand the rusty weeping, but do not understand the black color or the rust stains above the bushing on the top of the rudder column.

At one time Catalina would relay a new rudder on the old stainless shaft if it was not bent.  Then they stopped that option.  It might be worth a telephone call to see what their policy is now. 
I know that Tifinity Yachts (on the Great Wicomico Rvr) took a rudder from a friends Endeavour with similar problems as yours - stripped the old layup off, welded on a stainless grid and relayed the rudder.
So there are people out there that will use the old stainless column for a new rudder.

if you have this done, make sure that you have an elliptical rudder made - rather than the old design. 

A few thoughts
Ron, Apache #788

hump180

#4
We modified the rudder on our boat making it larger, similar to the newer style. When we removed it it was in similar condition as yours with weeping and corrosion at the shaft/rudder joint. We drilled some small holes in the rudder to see how far the corrosion had eaten through different sections of the "grid". Luckily we saw clean, shiny metal (only drilled through enough glass to hit the metal grid for inspection.)

So we talked to Catalina and they sent us a diagram with some instructions for repair. One was to bevel out the shaft/rudder joint and epoxy or 5200, and the other was to pour resin (I believe a quart) down the shaft as a filler and preventative for future water intrusion. This past summer I believe a new rudder had a 6 week lead time and around a 3K price tag.

We hung it upside down for a week, blew it out with air (looked like dirt and mud sitting in there), let it dry out,  then repaired and filled.

Bill, Grace Under Pressure, 1990, M-25XP #1026
Western Lake Erie

Ron Hill

I've written Mainsheet tech note articles on both of Bill's repair recommendations.

Also look at my article on "adding on" to make an elliptical rudder. 
Ron, Apache #788

Bob K

OK, I suppose I have to bite the bullet and remove the rudder to do this repair correctly. Didn't want to come to that conclusion yet, but all of your comments convinced me.   The steering quadrant bolts are as stuck and as can be, so I will have to fight that battle before-hand.  I was able to get all 4 bolts to turn slightly, but I think I was twisting the frozen bolts as opposed to loosening.   If I continue they may all snap, but I'm not sure what other option there is.   Any help on this little task will also be greatly appreciated. 
Bob K
Prosit
1992 #1186
Northern Chesapeake Bay

scotty

What's that stuff called ..  Blaster somthing??
Scotty

Craig Illman

I'd suggest an impact wrench and a deep socket. The shock of the impact wrench made all the difference removing mine. You can get one reasonably cheaply through Harbor Freight, now if I could just remember it when I rotate the car's tires.

"No project is worth doing if you can't purchase some new tools" -Anonymous

Steve Sayian

PB Blaster.  Great for frozen/rusted fasteners.

Steve Sayian
"Ocean Rose"
1999 Mk II
Wing, Std Rig, Kiwi Prop
#1448, Hingham, Mass

Ralph Masters

If you break them trying to get thme off, they needed to be replaced anyhow.
Navy wisdom, "If it don't fit, force it".

Ralph
Ralph Masters
Ciao Bella
San Diego
Hull 367, 1987

Steve Sayian

And if it moves, grease it, otherwise paint it...
Steve Sayian
"Ocean Rose"
1999 Mk II
Wing, Std Rig, Kiwi Prop
#1448, Hingham, Mass

Clay Greene

I feel your pain.  We were faced with the same dilemma last year.  As I remember, the quote from Catalina for a new rudder was $2600 without shipping from Florida.  They did not want the rudder post, so we were looking at drilling holes in the post if we had gone the new rudder route.  Instead, we dropped the rudder and took it home for the winter.  We drilled a bunch of holes and drained it.  I then used quite a bit of 5200 around the seal between the fiberglass and the rudder post and let that set for a couple of weeks.  We stripped the rudder down to the bare fiberglass, put new barrier coat on and then repainted.  Rehanging the rudder was another big pain in the a$$.  It took us several attempts to get the steering cables right (including losing our steering as we were heading up to the start line in our first race of the year - exciting!).  But I was pleased to see no weeping after the boat was pulled this year and the rudder sounds nice and hollow. 
1989, Hull #873, "Serendipity," M25XP, Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Stephen Butler

We replaced our rudder thanks to hurricane Wilma (boat went over and snapped the rudder).  As reported on a previous posting, it was actually a good thing as the entire steel structure inside was severly rusted and close to failure.  The critical point is the steel structure....if this is rusting, one can drain the water, reglass, etc., but the underlying structure is questionable.  Before doing much after drilling and draining the rudder, would suggest cutting some glass away to see the condition of the steel.  Just a thought.
Steve & Nancy
Wildflecken II
1990, #1023

crieders

Steve, I notice you are hull 1023. Mine is 1022, tall rig and we were considering the same project because of one weep spot on the port side. Now you have me worried. My big concern is getting the rudder off to begin with. I think I can do the rest. I forget now; did you replace or repair?
Do you keep your boat in warm or cold waters? We have about 650hrs on the boat and keep her in LI sound, New York altho I live in Wmpst Pa.
Cliff Rieders, c34 tall rig, 1990, hull #1022