Permeated holding tank... is that possible?

[Joe Holmes]

This year I found that the valve stem on my through hull isolation valve for the mascerator discharge left my hand with a small and very smelly wet spot.  Perhaps only leaked while the valve was being turned- as I had not seen any signs of leakage in the area, other than the wonderfull smell.  The valve was replaced after haul-out, and next year I will see if this has cured my woes.

[n624ma]

The answer is YES!!

This is after I had washed the tank and the inside of the locker with Dawn dish detergent and a scrub brush followed by a hot water rinse followed by Dawn with Clorox and a scrub brush and a hot water rinse. Then misted everything and everywhere with Marine PureAyre. A week later I rechecked and and still had the odor of permeation, so I did what any real American sailor would do, I HOSED the area with PureAyre (if some is good, too much should be almost enough!) 

I redid the sandwich bag taped to the top of the tank away from all openings and it still smells.

Looks like a new tank just got added to the winter project list!!

[Peggie Hall]

Did you remove the tank to eliminate ANY possibility that odor from the locker is attaching itself the outside of the tank?  Did you put a threaded plug into all the open fittings?  That's the only way to eliminate odor from inside the tanks as the source. And if you left the tank in place, you can't rule out odor from another source--residual odor from the locker or a spill you may not have found yet as the source.

IF your tank has actually permeated, it is the first EVER reported.  Ronco tanks (Ronco had made tanks for Catalina for about 20 years or maybe even longer) have walls that are 50% thicker than any other tank except Sealand (and they also make tanks for SeaLand), which makes it even more unlikely that it could have permeated.

So I'm not buying it. Pull the tank out, plug all the fittings and lock it in a closet for a week.  I'm willing to bet real money that it won't stink.

And STOP USING BLEACH!

Otoh, if you really WANT to spend the money for a new tank, that's fine with me...it's your money.

[n624ma]

Peggy,
I understand your incredulity (it matches mine), however I've washed, rinsed, sanitized, and PureAyre'd it to death!

All openings in the tank are connected to their proper plumbing except the macerator outlet which is closed out with a threaded plug (macerator and associated plumbing is removed).

It is 24 years old and I have no idea of its' prior usage history. If I leave the locker open so air can circulate there is very little odor in the boat, if I close the locker, when you open it there is no doubt in your mind that the holding tank is in there.

As I said before, I taped a sandwich bag to the top of the tank and four hours later cut open the bottom of the bag and stuck my nose in the bag to do the sniff test, so there was no outside influence on the test.

My last boat was a Hunter 33 (Jabsco and bladder) which I changed to PHII and Ronco, a lot of scrubbing and NO odor from the head, with an uphill 9' plumbing run, (I swear the PHII can flush golf balls). I've been here before and won. This time I'm losing!

[Peggie Hall]

Sandwich bag is no test...it CAN permeate with odor from outside it.  There has to be a source somewhere in that locker and removing the tank is the only way to prove it.

[Albreen]

Peggy and all: this may be an obvious question to many but having never replaced waste tank fittings before - are there specific, non-permeable plastic tank fittings for connecting the discharge and vent hoses to the tank? I have to do this in the spring or sooner after just removing the macerator pump and its hose and with also finding a slight crack in the tank fitting for the vent hose. Could these plastic pieces be the source of odor after many years of use?   

[Peggie Hall]

Could these plastic pieces be the source of odor after many years of use? 

Nope...tank fittings are PVC, marelon and nylon. Nylon can permeate, but PV and Marelon doesn't. However, anything can crack...and leak. 

[Albreen]

Peggy - Thanks for the quick reply! I'm almost certain the fitting I removed from the tank for the macerator hose was a standard nylon plumbing fitting..........this may be another source of the waste tank odor.........I have the pieces still at home and can check later tonight. If so, I'll replace the other two fittings as well when I change out those hoses. Thanks a bunch. 

[Footloose]

Paul,

Be sure to get that macerator out before spring launch or at least remove the hose from the through hull.  If you are checked on Lake Champlain that would be a big violation.  Mine is in the basement.

[Peggie Hall]

I'm almost certain the fitting I removed from the tank for the macerator hose was a standard nylon plumbing fitting.

Most "standard" plumbing fittings are PVC.

Dave is correct about the macerator. Although federal law doesn't require removing any overboard discharge plumbing in ANY "no discharge" waters, NY and VT state law requires it on Lake Champlain. 

Because Champlain is a navigable interstate waterway--which puts it under federal jurisdiction, with the state only charged with enforcement--AND because federal law specifically prohibits and "state or political subdivsion thereof" to enact any law that superceded federal law, I don't think the NY and VT law could withstand a challenge in court, but no one has done that yet...and anything is enforceable until/unless it IS successfully challenged in court.

Meanwhile, ya gotta remove the macerator and and all discharge plumbing connected to a thru-hull if you don't want to get slapped with a BIG fine.

[Albreen]

Thanks - yes, macerator was non-functional, its discharge hose was disconnected and capped, and the thru hull is capped and wired shut..........no compliance issue there. I checked the pieces I had at home last night and the fittings are Spears PVC. The 1" discharge hose from the macerator (end capped) was Bellowsflex hose - I googled the brand and it appears compliant with USCG marine applications. I didn't see any mention about this hose being non-permeable, however. So, at this point, fittings were not problematic. It must be the vent fittings that are white and possibly nylon............either case, they're going to be replaced when I upgrade the vent line per suggestions and projects on this forum.

[Indian Falls]

About that permeated tank material...

I went to the marina recently, it was 40ish temps and raining, I boarded the boat on the hard pulled off the settee above the holding tank and could smell faintly the same odor that's been bothering me all summer.  To recap, all reachable surfaces have been cleaned and soaked with pureayre repeatedly.

The clean top surface of my empty and rather cool holding tank smells like it's the source, no sandwich bag necessary.  The bottom of the settee cover does not smell this way. and it's only inches away. 
I may have to tackle tank removal this winter as well as elimination of the macerator and then we'll see just what's going on.

I have a feeling that N624MA (Joe Rheubeck) and I are going to have similar findings as we have attacked this problem in the same way. 
Then again maybe my nose has been permeated.

[Peggie Hall]

A couple of things... 

Albreen...There are several types of Bellows Flex hose--coolant (radiator), fuel, and exhaust...all of which meet USCG standards for those applications, but that doesn't mean it's rated for ALL applications or for below-waterline connections.  For example, clear plastic nylon hose also meets USCG standards for marine applications...but only some...it's not rated for any below waterline application.  I'd never heard of Bellows Flex, so I don't whether it is or not, or whether it's suitable for sanitation...nor do I have any idea what the prices are...so  I'd test it for odor permeation...if it flunks, replace it with Trident 101...if it passes, it ain't broke so it doesn't need fixing...yet.

As for your nylon vent fitting... no need to replace a nylon TANK fitting, but absolutely replace any nylon thru-hull fitting.  However, as long as you're replacing at least one of 'em, this would be an excellent time to upgrade to a 1" vent. Easy to do...all you need is a threaded plug for the existing vent, a hole saw, a  UniSeal  http://www.aussieglobe.com/uniseal1.htm (scroll through ALL the pages to see how to do it and to get to the price list)  and a 1" bulkhead thru-hull.

Indian... I love your persistance! If a permeated tank were the culprit, the bottom of the cushion that's close to it would definitely stink.  You've treated every REACHABLE surface with PureAyre...so an UNreachable surface has to be the culprit. Get rid of the macerator and replace the hoses to and from it...and spray all the surfaces in that area with PureAyre...and I think you'll finally solve your problem.

[hump180]

Peggy and others...any ideas where to run a larger sized hose and thru hull on mark 1's? We dont have the cabinetry to hide the hoses and can't think of a short direct route and location that would be out of sight and out of the water during a decent heel. Midship is a convenient spot but dipped often.

[Stu Jackson]

Bill, I've thought a lot about this.  I think the best place for us "Old Geezer" boats is right straight up from where the vent goes now before it turns aft to the stanchion.  Right behind the removable woodwork.  Whaddaya think?  It's also behind the widest part of the boat.  We'd have to put a 90 elbow on it, though.  Peggie might no like that, but if it's a new 1" with a Uniseal new hole on the tank...?