Xantrex system help

[Tom Soko]

Kevin,
1) If your voltage was 12.9 when the cross-connect switch was on, and then the voltage jumped up to 13.8 when you turned the switch off, you might have a problem with the starting battery. 
2) If you show -0.1A when everything is turned off, there is either something still turned on, or you have a weird monitor.  I have a weird monitor.  Mine shows -0.2A when I know everything is turned off.  Once a month or so, after I charge up the batteries completely, voltage is up high, and the charger is in the float mode, I re-set the AH to zero.  All warning lights go off, and everything returns to normal.  The procedure is in the manual.  Hope this helps.

[Kevin Henderson]

Thanks Stu.  I was reading over the electrical 101 series last night and saw your comments on the 1-2-B switch compared to the Blue Sea combiner.  For now I will live with the Blue Sea and as you said in a thread in 2008: 

"I encourage people to understand what they have so they know how to properly use it."

I'm taking that to heart and will be sketching out my wiring diagram ASAP.

[Ron Hill]

Kevin : If you call Xantrax at 08:00 eastern time you can get a couple of great techs that can answer your questions, especially on the horizontal mounting of your Truecharge 20.   I never hesitate to call the manufacturer and talk with someone!!

I don't mean to offend anyone but I always talk to the company that made it unit/equipment in question and the least info is taken from the net.

In fact it's time that I restate one of my proverbs:
If you talk to the manufacturer, you are talking to the "horses mouth".
If you are taking your info from the internet/blog, you don't know which end of the horse is speaking !?!

That is a Ronism

[Kevin Henderson]

Xantrex system as I know it today:

On Thursday I had set the DC parallel switch to the following positions:
House – ON
Engine – OFF
Emergency Cross Connect – OFF
When I left the boat the TrueCharge 20 was supplying a charge.  Upon returning to the boat on Saturday I saw the AH indicator on the Link 20 showed -854.  This indication meant that the charger had stopped charging shortly after I had made the switch settings.
Since nursing a cold and flu I only had time today to spend a couple hours and make some observations.  Since yesterday, the charger once again had stopped at some point from continuing the charge so once again I begin my tests and made the following observations:
At time 1317 readings taken from the link 20.
AH - -854
V – 13.6
A – 7.7
DC parallel switch settings were left the same as indicated earlier.

Time -1432
AH - -850
V – 13.75
A – 3
NOTE:  At this time the Link 20 indicates 3.0 Amps.  This corresponds to the charging current indicated on the Truecharge 20 (3 amps).  However, the Truecharge remote display indicates a "total charger current" of 8 amps with the reefer turned of and 12 Amps with the reefer on.

Time – 1551
AH - -848
V – 13.8
A – 2.1
NOTE:  It was at this juncture I observed the charge light had extinguished momentarily and "Total Charge Current" went to 0 A.  Then "Total charge current rose to 12 A. The charge light illuminated and charging continued.  Comparing amperage at this time I observed:
Link 20 – 2A
Remote Display – 12A
TrueCharge battery Charger – 5A

I have double checked the owner's manuals and have every confidence that the wiring configuration is correct for my installation.  Therefore I think I have narrowed things down to the following possibilities:
1 – The battery Charger – The manual states that it should supply a charging current of up to 20 Amps during the bulk charge phase of recharging.  I have not observed charging current to reach this level.
2.  My 4 house batteries are shot. 
3.  The Link 20 has been mis-configured through operator error at some point.  If is not synchronized with the batteries and configured correctly I could simply be seeing some false readings.  But to synchronize you must have fresh fully charged batteries.

Ron:  You may be right in that the charger is shot.  But I'm still not certain.
Stu:  I wished I had taken your advice to heart earlier about understanding all the systems thoroughly

Additionally:  What is the difference in the indicated amperage readings between the 3 displays i.e.  The Link 20 indicating 2A, the remote display indicating 12A, and the battery charger itself indicating 5A.

Lots to chew on and I'll be making a trip to the boat this week to see if the charging had continued after I left today.

What am I missing and any ideas?

[Mike and Joanne Stimmler]

Hi Kevin,
If you do find that you need a marine electrician, I have a great one. His name is Alan Katz, his company is Doctor Electron and his number is 858-752-3198. He is a Raymarine certified marine electrician and I guarantee you will like him. He's a great guy!

Mike

[Kevin Henderson]

Thank you Mike.  I may be getting to that point but I'm determined. 
I may be taking a battery to Powerstride down in the sports arena area to See if they could test and at least tell me if one battery is any good.  I hate to face the possibility of laying out the $$$ for 4 new AGM batteries at $275-$350 each
If I do find that it's the batteries I may take two of the batteries out of the bank and only use 2 since 4 batteries are probably overkill for my needs.
Has anyone ever done that? Taking 2 out of a 4 battery series parallel bank and safely wrapping the connectors of the 2 unused batteries?
Also trying to get smart on the link 20 owners manual but I'm afraid that my lack of an engineering degree may be a hindrance.
Anybody got a copy of Xantrex link 20 for Dummies?   

[Ron Hill]

Kevin : As I previously mentioned - call early 0800 in the morning and I've had those techs on the phone till the cell phone battery needed charging. 
However, you might wait till you are feeling better and more receptive to tech advice!!

Yes, you can take any number of batteries out of the house bank.  You are just lowering it's total AH capacity.  With a C34 I wouldn't go below 300AH - if you have a fridge.   

The best place I found for GP31 AGM 105AH batteries is at "Batteries +".   A thought

[mainesail]

Kevin : As I previously mentioned - call early 0800 in the morning and I've had those techs on the phone till the cell phone battery needed charging. 
However, you might wait till you are feeling better and more receptive to tech advice!!

Yes, you can take any number of batteries out of the house bank.  You are just lowering it's total AH capacity.  With a C34 I wouldn't go below 300AH - if you have a fridge.   

The best place I found for GP31 AGM 105AH batteries is at "Batteries +".   A thought

Ron,

Sometimes the "horses mouth" is more full of manure than the internet. I am glad you've had good luck with Xantrex tech support. That however is not what I find or hear to be the norm. Xantrex in particular tends to be the laughing stock of the industry in terms of support. Unless it is a current Xantrex product, and not a left over Cruising Equipment, Heart Interface or Trace product, they can barely answer the questions unless looking at their "cookbook", and it's an easy one. Often times when they do answer they are blowing smoke and this I find far more offensive than just saying "I don't know but I will find someone who does."...

I let a tech support guy blow smoke about the Echo Charger for ten minutes one day and when he found out I actually KNEW how the product worked and that I was not just some DIY who would believe his load of BS, he finally stopped talking, stopped with his nonsensical blabber, and tried to get me over to engineering so they could help figure out why this particular Echo was dropping more voltage than any other one I had installed.

The answer was only to be found by opening an old one up and a new one and witnessing different components and a "different" build, perhaps a cheaper one. Engineering was not forthright with the changes they had made to the product and was no help at all. Earlier and later versions did not have this voltage drop issue..

I have not found one tech support person there who even knows how an Echo charger really works except for one guy who has a basic understanding. I have been after them for three years to make the necessary changes to the Echo Charger manual but they drag their feet and have done zip, zero & zilch... I have had multiple conversations with their head of tech support up in BC, a woman named Marainna, multiple emails and long conversations with the guys in tech support & engineering who all agree the manual NEEDS changing but they never do it and only make empty promises so I continue to charge people for service calls where I need to explain to them that the manual is misleading and poorly written.

They do make some good products, the Echo, Link Lite & Link Pro among them, but they have also made some horrendous ones. Their newer chargers have been horribly unreliable, fan and temp issues, and I have switched much of my charger installs to Mastervolt and Victron. Raymarine & Furuno are excellent with tech support these days and Mastervolt is darn good too. Unless I want a good chuckle I rarely call Xantrex anymore unless I can talk directly to engineering.

That being said Xantrex is "trying" to bump up their quality of tech support and they are aware of their reputation when it comes to tech support, and things do change. About 8 years ago I had all but written off Raymarine and they have done a complete 180 while at the same time Garmin has gone down in quality for marine tech support.

I actually find excellent results with the "internet" and get to try this out on a daily basis. You think Xantrex was going to let anyone know about the "gotcha factor" or short fan life with many of their chargers???...

[mainesail]

 I hate to face the possibility of laying out the $$$ for 4 new AGM batteries at $275-$350 each

Kevin,

Don't know about your area but Sam's Club just took on the East Penn / Deka line about a month ago. They sell the SAME EXACT batteries that West Marine does only with a different sticker. The Group 31 AGM at Sam's Club in Scarborough Maine is only $166.00! Still not cheap but a LOT less than the price of the same exact battery at a West Marine...

See this thread:
http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=132350

[Kyle Ewing]

NOTE:  It was at this juncture I observed the charge light had extinguished momentarily and "Total Charge Current" went to 0 A.  Then "Total charge current rose to 12 A. The charge light illuminated and charging continued. 

My TrueCharge 40 does the same thing periodically through the charging cycle.  My theory is it stops charging periodically to assess battery conditions.

Additionally:  What is the difference in the indicated amperage readings between the 3 displays i.e.  The Link 20 indicating 2A, the remote display indicating 12A, and the battery charger itself indicating 5A.

The Link 20 shows currently flow into/out of the battery.  The battery charger provides current to charge the batteries plus anything using electricity.  If you turn everything off, the Link 20 should match the charger.  I don't know why the remote and charger don't agree.  Bad connection?

1 – The battery Charger – The manual states that it should supply a charging current of up to 20 Amps during the bulk charge phase of recharging.  I have not observed charging current to reach this level.

Before I replaced batteries, I was concerned with my Alternator not producing full charging current.  I replaced the batteries and output increased to what I expected.  If you have bad batteries, that could be the reason.  Also, bulk lasts a very short time, especially if batteries are full.

Regarding replacing the 4 AGM batteries at $275-$350 each, a Sam's club lead-acid golf cart battery is in the $70 range.

[Stu Jackson]

The Link 20 shows currently flow into/out of the battery.  The battery charger provides current to charge the batteries plus anything using electricity.  If you turn everything off, the Link 20 should match the charger.  I don't know why the remote and charger don't agree.  Bad connection?

Could it be because the Link is reporting NET (like described the Gotcha Algorithm topic: charger on, fridge on...charger 8A, fridge 5A, NET 3A - please, do the math...) while the charger is reporting GROSS output (the 8A).

People keep saying "The battery charger provides current to charge the batteries plus anything using electricity."  That hasn't been my experience with my Link 2000.  At that stage, most chargers are working off the battery acceptance.

And the DIFFERENCE in the amps between the charger and the Link simply shows this.

When my fridge kicks on when the charger is putting in 8A, the charger DOES NOT go up to 13A (8+5).

Add to that the "analog" (idiot lights) nature of the charger panel compared ot the digital aspect of the Link, and you're comparing apples and oranges.

Kevin, given Maine Sail's excellent AGM report, they are simply NOT for everyone.  They require an extensive understanding of electrical and charging systems and most folks just don't have either the knowledge or the equipment investment to take advantage of AGMs advantages.  Jim Moe's excellent article, in the wiki, and Maine Sail's superb discussion should be enough to clue you in, as you yourself did say.  Just sayin'...

I've read your fine presentation, and am thinking about it.  A wiring diagram, to support your "understanding" of what you have, would be a great help for us to help you.

Ron, Xantrex (these days) is a joke, Maine Sail is right.  We have more to offer there than they do.

Good luck, Kev, I think you're getting there.  How's the wiring diagram coming?    When was the last time you synchronized the Link?

Hope you're feeling better.

[Stu Jackson]

2) If you show -0.1A when everything is turned off, there is either something still turned on, or you have a weird monitor.  ... I re-set the AH to zero.  All warning lights go off, and everything returns to normal.  The procedure is in the manual. 

My Link 2000 manual states that there is constant drain of around 0.1A from the unit.  That's what I see.

[Len]

Kevin,

Do yourself a favor if you are trying to understand your electrical system: purchase a digital clamp on ammeter. A good quality meter is less than $60 (Sears) a medium quality meter is less than $20. You can verify your readings and you will have a continuity tester/volt meter too. Nigel Calder books are worth their weight in gold. The easy way is to call and pay for an expert but you won't learn anything. What are you going to do when it craps out away from the dock? Read and if it doesn't sink in, read it again. Good luck.

Len

[Ron Hill]

Stu : I reset my Link 10 to 14.0 V and 1%.  After two times of "plugging in" to shore power (Truecharge 40) for about 18 hours with nothing turned on - I never saw the blinking light at said the batteries were "full".

I went back and reset to 13.3V and 2% and within an hour the 100% light "full" was blinking. 

During all of these times the Amps read +.2 amps. 

Just wanted to pass it on.