Hawk's Electrical System

[Ron Hill]

Hawk : To clear up what "Ron does"  -- I enter the boat and turn the battery selector to 1 then ALL and then 2 to check the voltage and charge status of each battery bank (before shore power is turned ON).
 
The selector then goes to ALL and stays in the ALL position for the remainder of the trip.  When were are back at the dock and leaving, I turn the shore power OFF and check each battery bank for "0" amperage to make sure nothing has been left ON.  I want to see "0" amps before I turn the battery selector switch to OFF.

That's what Ron Does !!

[Stu Jackson]

What Ron has mentioned many times before is that he has a different electrical system than most folks, so the switch position for his use will be quite different than it would be for the system we have been promoting (1-2-B switch, AO to the house bank, etc.).  I get on my boat, switch to the house bank (#1) and leave it there, and use it for everything, occasionally checking and using our reserve bank to assure its health.  'Bout as simple as one can get.  I never use ALL, and recommend that no one with this setup ever do so (unless the engine is running and charging and your "relay" - whatever it may be - has broken).  That's because if you switch to B with a deeply discharged or "broken" bank, either one, it could seriously harm your other bank.  That's why the Blue Seas Dual Circuit switch is not a good choice for a good electrical system, 'cuz it combines banks at the worst possible time.

[Ron Hill]

Guys : As Stu points out my electrical system is differant, but really not that differant! as my system is nearly the same as it came from the factory.

You surely won't find my wiring in "Electrical 101" because I'm a mechanic and not an electrician.
To me I think of plumbing and having the electrons flowing thru "pipes" called wires.

When I decided to upgrade to a hi-output alternator (1991/2?) I saw they made a duel out put model.  I decided to run the charging wires direct to the battery banks, thinking why charge the selector switch and it's associated wiring before dribbling the charge to the batteries -- instead go direct made more sense to me.

I also have a starting battery which also serves the windlass. It's on a manual switch from battery bank #2. It gets turned on for about 30 min a day -- as you have to "gasp" turn the switch ON and OFF.

I don't have combiners, echo charges and other expensive electrical gadgets that take power to run. I simply use the KISS principle.
 
Mine is probably not the system for others, but has worked for me for only about 20+ years. 
A thought   

[Stu Jackson]

Ron, actually what you have is a very good system, and your description of it really helps.  Not many people have "stumbled across" the dual alternator output method of charging banks.  As I've written many times, my "challenge" in 1998 was to figure out how to use my Freedom 15 combined inverter/charger which, contrary to many standard chargers of the time in use, only had ONE single output for charging.  Since the alternator I had ALSO had only one, I decided to use the "combiner approach" because they hadn't invented the echo charger yet.  I agree that your solution is elegant and very useful and is an option that folks may very well want to consider.

[Hawk]

Thanks Ron and Stu.
My question in Reply 31 about the AO if no Echo is used is answered at least on Ron's boat by the dual AO alternator.

It is clear that there are different approaches to setting up the electrical system on one's boat. What is very important however, certainly for me, is that you really need to know how each component is wired to the others and what is actually happening.......that quest contnues this week.

Mind you, a dead reserve, bum charger and dodgy alternator didn't stop us from heading to the outstation (no power) for two days of sun and fun. Sure liked watching the solar panel plug amps into the house though (:

Hawk

[Hawk]

To follow up I just got off the phone with the auto/marine electric company who said my external regulator was defective but the 105amp Leece Neville alt is fine so he changed the brushes. Then he said " I did you a favour and you're going with the internal regulator...all those fancy ex regs are a waste of money...don't worry, you'll be fine - no boiling batteries" - with a laugh.

So on hanging up I searched our site and this short post of Stu's from April came up:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6255.0.html

In that post is a link from Mainesails post to the below article which is excellent and convinced me that the marine electric guy could be bang on.
http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showpost.php?p=775433&postcount=1

The external regulator I had just added complexity and a real failure potential...but for no real gain. The article goes on to say when smart regulators are helpful but that doesn't seem to be my situation nor most of us sailors, even if we want to be off of shore power for 5 or 6 days.

Tomorrow I am reinstalling the alt but wiring it direct to the house bank ( 3-27s 345ah) catch ya later to the ex reg (at least for now until I'm convinced). The new Truecharge 2 with temp and remote monitor goes in and goodbye Promariner Protech 4. I am going to use both seperate bank outputs, one to the house and the other to the 4 D reserve. It is being charged at the shop overnight to determine if I fried it over the last year....if so, then in goes a new 4D. I will charge on ALL when motoring for both banks and the Truecharge 2 with charge both banks on shore power.
My battery selector switch is set up 1 2 ALL OFF in that order so no real danger of switching through OFF to fry alt diodes when motoring.
Last I don't see any need to add more equipment like the Echo charge other than convenience in the use of the battery selector.

Ok this is happening tomorrow at 9 PST...so fire away if something looks really nutty. But re-read the article before commenting on external regulators.(:

Thanks guys.

Hawk

[Ron Hill]

Tom : I still think that you need to read Nigel Calder's article in the July Sailing about why alternator and battery temps should be info that is fed to your voltage regulator so it can compensate.

I'm sure Mainsails article was correct for when it was written - 1999. 

Have fun with your installation tomorrow.  A thought

[Stu Jackson]

Tom,

My battery selector switch is set up 1 2 ALL OFF in that order so no real danger of switching through OFF to fry alt diodes when motoring.

As long as you wire your AO to your house bank, this issue is moot.  You can turn the darned switch off with the alternator running and not cause any harm.  That's one of the great advantages.

All you're doing is using the manual B on the switch to charge your reserve bank instead of an echo charger.  Good for you.  Just realize you don't have to do that all the time, since the reserve bank is almost always full.  You could run on just your house bank on the switch when motoring, since when you plug back in you'll soon recharge your reserve bank.

Your system, and the way you know how to operate it, is just fine.

Have at it and have fun.

[Hawk]

Stu,

Thanks for that clarification that there is one less concern, re: the fried diodes since the alt will connect direct to the house. Even better.

And Ron it is the August issue of Sail as I have it in front of me and had read it last week with interest...some good cautionary comments. But Calder does say regarding thermal runaway that, "But as we put ever larger battery banks, heavier loads and more powerful charging devices on our boats, then push charging systems to the limit with "smart" multi-step regulators, we bring ourselves ever closer to the edge."  Perhaps there is more danger with smart regs that are set for too high voltage for too long in the bulk stage (ie 14.8-15v). I believe the "dumb" internal reg is set for constant 14.4v. He talks about keeping batteries cool (not in engine rooms and not in different locations that create varying temps in different batteries).
Lastly he does say that v regulators for powerful charging devices should include temp sensors at the batteries. He doesn't really define "powerful charging device".

But I agree Ron that its something to consider.
The question I have asked is "Could there be a problem if I motor for 11 hours straight as I did 2 weeks ago running the 105a alt wired to the house with an internal reg set for 14.4 The answer I got was no...and the article in my last post didn't suggest otherwise. So.....not 100% sure on that one but thanks again for mentioning it. Any thoughts?
Hawk

[Stu Jackson]

The question I have asked is "Could there be a problem if I motor for 11 hours straight as I did 2 weeks ago running the 105a alt wired to the house with an internal reg set for 14.4 The answer I got was no...and the article in my last post didn't suggest otherwise. So.....not 100% sure on that one but thanks again for mentioning it. Any thoughts?

Nope, you shouldn't.  The battery acceptance (there's that pesky little thing, again) will generally govern the amperage that you can put into your house bank.  I'd certainly only turn your 1-2-B switch to ONLY the house bank when you're motoring like this, since the reserve bank is almost full after you've started your engine.  In fact, with your system, I'd run off the house bank all the time anyway and only use shorepower to top off your reserve bank when you get back.  Think of it this way, with a 100 ah reserve bank, and 2 ah for each start, how many starts can you get from ONLY the reserve bank before you hit 50% of its capacity?

Maine Sail has made the point many times that automotive alternators do just that and are set for that voltage but don't fry car batteries.

Just check you battery water levels regularly.

[Ron Hill]

Hawk : A couple of things:

The Perko battery selector switch ( I assume that's the one you have) is a "Make before Break" type switch.  I was concerned 20+ years ago about "dirtying up the contacts of the switch" by changing the battery selection with the manual switch. Had a long talk with Perko tech dept and found out there is no problem in changing selections with the engine running because the switch makes contact with the new position before leaving (breaking) with the old position.

On your motoring for 11 hours - you'll be golden with an internal regulator set at 14.4 V.  Where that "automobile type internal regulator" will kill you is on short runs of only having the engine on for an hour or two.  You won't be able the even replace the amps used during that period by the fridge and forget about staying at anchor overnight - your battery bank won't last after a couple of days because they will never be recharged!! 
If you plan on going to a marina and plugging in everyother day - by all means get an internal regulator.  That's why power boats can live with an internal regulator - they have the engine running all the time!!

The whole idea of a smart regulator whether it be shore power or for the engine is to ramp up to a bulk charge and stay there (socking as many amps as the system will safely take) in the shortest period of time.  Then the smart regulator goes to a float charge.  The internal regulator stay just above a float charge All the Time.

A few thoughts - Your boat your choice!! 

[Ralph Masters]

Ron,
Thank you for the information.  It's all very enlightening.
Ciao Bell still has the orignal battery charger, 55 alt and only two batteries.  I'm slowly piecing together the information I need to upgrade the system to allow us to do week end trips away from the grid.  Now I know why you need to increase the size of the alt and go to external reg.

Thanks,

Ralph

[Stu Jackson]

Disclaimer (for noworries)

I have split this topic, which used to be an extension of the "Electrical 101" topic.

I wrote to Tom and asked for and obtained his permission to split his contributions into a separate topic, since I intended the "Electrical 101" topic to be a reference source of links, rather than a specific discussion of one particular system for an individual boat.

Thanks, Tom.  As promised, I've added a link to this topic in the 101 thread, in Reply #1, renamed "Various System Designs."

Stu

[waterdog]

Tom, I think you need to stop spreading rumours, chill down some nice Okanagan Spring Pale Ales, and invite me and my volt meter over...

[Hawk]

Steve,

Does it have an ampmeter and presume you will be decent now that you are back from Desolation Sound, or are you?.......if yes to both then you're on.

Ron

The install is completed and as I mentioned to Stu the only equipment glitch is the Truecharge 2 remote is not displaying any battery capacity lights for my bank 1 reserve althought the charger is pushing amps to the reserve. It's easy enough to remove it and see if I can get it replaced...otherwise not sure why nothing is lighting for bank 1 on the remote. I don't have a monitor on the reserve so the remote would be nice but its not critical. Anyone else had problems with the remote display?

Ron you nailed the central issue for me which is I DO need to feel comfortable off shore power for up to a week. That is what led me to do this system upgrade. But I was concerned when the alt/electrical experts told me to ditch the external regulator and then looked further to find Mainesails excellent discussion on regulators posted above and here again for convenience:
http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showpost.php?p=775433&postcount=1

You suggest that the internal reg won't charge a depleted bank in 2 hours motoring and I'd need to plug in every other day...the battery bank won't even last a couple days...which expresses my concern. However that seems contrary to Mainesails comments where he says:

"While the Ample power regulator might produce a higher field voltage is it necessary? No it is not, at least in the experiments I conducted with many different dumb regulators. I spent quite a few hours at a friends alternator shop where he has a $30,000.00 alternator testing machine. I loaded random alts into it and tested them for max alt rated output. EVERY single internal dumb regulator applied enough field voltage to achieve the max rated output of the alternator, EVERY ONE. You may be able to apply more field voltage, as Ample Power does, but you can't exceed the alternators rating. If the alternator can hit its maximum output rating with a dumb regulator then a smart one will NOT increase charging times in bulk phase. Simple stuff.

8- ABSORPTION - Absorption is the set point LIMIT of voltage of the regulator and any charging that continues beyond this voltage set point is voltage limited or "regulated" to this voltage/pressure set point.

9- FLOAT - Float voltage is a further reduced voltage LIMIT applied by a smart regulator. Dumb regulators do not do float. If you feel you need it, motor a LOT more than you actually sail, you'll also need a smart regulator.


All of the above is based on what I have seen, read or heard most people misconstrue. You may not have misconstrued any of it but it is good to get out there.

In Practice:

If you take two identical 100 amp alternators and two identically discharged battery banks and one smart and one dumb regulator both set to 14.4 absorption volts they should both charge at the same speed in bulk. No magic here just basic stuff.

Why? 14.4 volts is 14.4V is 14.4V is 14.4V. As I mentioned above the "smart" regulator is a constant voltage or voltage "limited" device just like a dumb one is. Some manufacturers give you time limits on "bulk" and give you a time limited option of 14.6V or 14.8V bulk charging before they time limit to 14.4 or 14.2, depending upon the settings YOU choose, but the truth is they do not charge faster if the voltages are set equal. They CAN charge faster if you set the absorption voltage higher, which you can do because you have a float feature after a high absorption voltage. You would not want a high absorption voltage setting, actually the only setting, on a "dumb" regulator. All they do in the most basic sense is turn on and off very fast to keep the voltage to its limit. When you dumb it down there is nothing fancy about voltage regulation/voltage limiting. Smart regulators do not charge faster, when set at the same voltage set point, and all other things being equal."


He also says typically we sailors do not need a float stage:

"For the amount of time you, a sailor, are charging off an alternator and the potential amount of hours spent at 13.2 - 13.6 float levels being so VERY, VERY limited. I personally find very little utility for sailboat alternators to have float voltage, for wet cell batteries, on the alternator unless your batts have high acceptance rates and you also have an alt that can deliver lots of amperage. "

So I appreciate your comments Ron as that issue concerns me greatly as the further up BC you go the less power is available. But if you are right I will need to change out the internal for a smart ext reg.
I measured 55 amps going to the house and 15 amps to the reserve yesterday with the alt/internal reg setup. I thought that looked good. Do you have any comments on Mainesail's article because you raise a really important issue. Thanks

Hawk