MK I vs. MK II

[drcam1]

I have read copious posts on this subject, including the old boat vs. new post.  I would like to post some specific questions regarding purchasing an MK I (1988) vs. an MK II (1997) to see if I understand the differences and what I would need to do to the 1988 boat to make it a comparable boat to the 1997.  ($30,000 difference in asking price, both are freshwater) The biggest difference I see right off the start is that I would be able to finance the higher cost on the newer boat, and any upgrades to the older boat would be out of pocket.

If anyone responding has estimates regarding the costs associated with the upgrades I am suggesting, please include those as well.

1.  With a 1988 model it appears that the traveller bolt and alternator bracket issues would not be a problem?

2.  I still need to check to see if the wiring harness has been replaced?  Cost to do if not done?

3.  I need to see if the 1988 has had the rudder upgraded to the new model. (it seems like this is a big improvement in handling?)

4.  23 year old standing rigging vs 14 year old rigging?  is this an issue?

5.  Cost to replace/recover cushions?  (both settees and sleeping cabins)

6.  Add on swim platform.  Thoughts on cost to do so?

7.  Stern pulpit seats?

8.  After rudder upgraded, any differences in handling?  Any differences in single-handling?

9.  What is the best size wheel for handling/single-handling?

10.  Is the different backstay that big of an issue?

Assuming the boats are in good condition otherwise, are there any other contrasting issues I should be aware of?

I know this is a long post, hopefully you can tell that I have been reading the posts in-depth to get to this point.  I appreciate your responses.

Cameron

[waterdog]

I have an 88, can probably answer a few of these.

For all these questions, how handy are you?   How much do you want to do yourself?  I glanced down the list and thought you could do all the upgrades for 1/2 the difference in price.   If you pay somebody else to do everything, it could be twice the price difference.   

1. Not an issue on mine.
2. Don't know
3. I replaced mine, but honestly the boat handled fine with the old design.   My joy of sailing hasn't increased any.
4. The difference is nine years - 23 years is arguable due for renewal - the difference between the two is 9/23 * the cost of a rigging job - which will probably cost you $4k depending on what you do (paint the mast, etc)
5.  Expensive.  I did mine myself there is probably $1500 in materials alone if you replace with good quality foam on the seating surfaces-a lot of work - if an upholstery shop charges $3k they aren't ripping you off.
6. I bought commercial platforms - little ones either side of the swim ladder for a few hundred that I really like.  Something more elaborate would likely cost $1000 or so depending on what you do with the ladder and how much custom fabrication is done.
7. $200 will get you the materials - a nice upgrade
8.  With your sail plan balanced and nicely trimmed - not much difference.  But others rave about performance.
9. Don't know.  Mine has standard wheel.   I wish it was larger when I sit on the coaming.  I wish it was smaller when I try to get around it.   I guess that means its perfect.  That is I assume your talking about the steering wheel and you haven't gone all fishboat captain and your talking about the propellor.
10. It something to address when you replace the rigging.   Probably you have other priorities in between.

Hope this helps.   I think if you enjoy working on your boat and undertaking projects, the older '88 is a great platform, you can sail it as (urgent safety considerations aside) and prioritize your upgrades as you get to know the boat.   If you would rather have a little higher payment and less work the newer one would be better.   For me the dominant distinction between the two is the transom. How will use the boat.   If you are always anchored and easy access to your dingy is a big concern, the walk through has an advantage.  If you daysail or tie up at marinas on your cruise, it's less of an issue.   That is the one big thing you can't change.

[Wayne]

I would add to the previous post regarding the transom.  I back into my slip in order  to take advantage of the ease of boarding offered by an open transom.

[drcam1]

Steve,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. 

Yes, I am referring to the helm (wheel).  haha! 

I would likely be at harbor every night and not using a dingy, swim platform would just be for the kids to swim off of.  Thoughts from other owners would still be welcome/appreciated.

Cameron

[Ted Pounds]

I thought the new rudder made a HUGE difference on my fin keel 34. 

[Jim Hardesty]

Cameron,

My 2 cents.   The first couple of years of maintenance has a lot to do with the previous owner.  The 1997 is 13 years old, could be in need of sails, running rigging, and more.  The 1988 is 22, probably has had more replaced.  But when?  You really need to check (survey) boat boats if cost of ownership is the main thought.
For my use the MKll cockpit, pulpit seats, walk thru transom and shower, is a great plus.

Best of luck on your decision.
Jim

[bmcphillips]

A comment on the transom-we've had our '88 for 7 or 8 years and our kids love things the way they are-they prefer to jump/dive in off the deck or even the pulpit rail for the added height.  We cruise 2 weeks every summer, never spend the night at docks, getting in and out of the dingy multiple times a day via the ladder and it just becomes what you are used to.  The Garhauer lifting davit attached to the back of a West Marine dog life preserver has become the standard way to get our 50 lb water-loving labradoodle back on board, always to the great amusement of the assembled mooring field.  The aft locker space holds our fenders, hatch boards, sail and wheel covers easily.  I'm not sure where all that goes with the transom cut out on later models. 

[Lance Jones]

You can get nice stern seats through Zarcor. I went that route and love them. www.zarcor.com/products/sternperch/index.php

[scotty]

I bought a MKI, so I have a bias.  Why did I do so?  Money, Maintenance and Wow. 

Wow:  I actually liked the MKII better.  I really like the open stern (but I like the storage of the MKI, and the helm seating is very comfortable.).  I also liked the wider stern, and the style that it allows on deck and below.  Newer is good (for me). 

Money:  30K is a lot of K, so the MKI gets the nod here.  Yes, I have some upgrades to do, but a lot less than 30K.  I like working on my boat.  It's part of the appeal of the whole lifestyle.  And, it saves a lot of money.

Maintenance:  How well maintained is the boat?  I bless the Previous Owners of my boat.  Lots (not all) of the major upgrades have been done.  New standing rigging (and other stuff), proper care for the various systems, lots of gear that makes the boat mo betta, and would cost a lot of money.  My boat was clean and loved.

The details of your list are well laid out.  Does the MKI need all upgrades (#s 1,2)?  If so, add them to the cost, or do them yourself for 1/2 the price.  I don't care about the rudder (3,8) for my needs.  Others might feel differently.  I agree with Waterdog about pretty much all of it, especially the wheel.  It's important for me to get around the wheel comfortably, so I don't want it too big.  I'm thinking about a small swim platform too.

So, it's quite a choice.  You are in great shape, because both are great boats.  What tipped me was two things:  1)  My boat-to-be was in great shape, with lots of gear.  2)  Financially it made better sense for me to spend less money out front, and pay as I go for the upgrades I want.  But I guess I can't discount the Wow factor.  I have to admit that my wife and I both fell in love with the new boat.

Good luck in your decision.

[Craig Illman]

I did a lot of upgrades to my 1991, traveller, solid vang, etc., etc.  Every dime you put into it won't matter on the resale value. mine did sell in only two weeks though. A lot depends on the condition of the boat, the 1988 could have been lovingly cared for, the 1997 ignored. If you can afford it and the surveys are equivalent, get the newer boat. Just remember, the survey is just about the cheapest significant project you'll do on the boat, don't be afraid to walk away if there are ANY doubts. Spend the money for an engine survey too.

It's been seven months, I'm still in mourning for letting it go.

Craig

[Stephen Butler]

We sail a 1990, Mark 1 and 1/4.....built in swim platform....and love it.  Having said this, it seems to me that a critical question is how long do you intend to own the boat and how much resale value you will be seeking to maintain.   If a relatively short period is planned, then I would go with the newer craft....if a longer ownership time is planned, the older craft is the choice.  This assumes that you are going to do whatever upgrades/repairs are needed on each.  Both are going to require lots of remedial work.  One additional item...a newer rudder.    We have had both and the new shape is better, but not enough to pick one year over another.  However, sometime around 1990, CY changed from a mild steel internal frame (which rusts) to a ss frame....make very sure that your surveyor checks rusty water seeping from the rudder.  Just another voice offering some advice.  Whichever way you go, the C34 is a fabulous boat to own.

[Clay Greene]

I've given your topic a lot of thought because we own a 1989 C34, have good friends with a 1997 C34 three slips down from us, and are actively seeking a 2000-2004 C34.  I don't have responses on all of your points but I'll give my two cents on a few of them and some you haven't mentioned. 

My first thought is you have not mentioned what I consider to be a considerable difference in the two boats, the engine.  There is going to be a difference in the number of hours on the engine so on the 1988 boat you are going to be that much closer to a rebuild or a repower, a considerable investment.  And it is not just hours on the engine involved - the passage of time means the aging of components whether used or unused and time for deferred maintenance by PO to have resulted in accumulated performance decline and decay.  And finally on this point, the engines are different in the two boats.  The 1988 probably has a M25XP, the same engine in our boat.  A fine engine but IMHO, too small for the boat.  23 HP compared to the 30hp in the M35.  The M25XP was the right engine for the C30 but I think Catalina recognized the problem with the move to the bigger powerplant.  What will that mean to you?  Unlike my friend's boat, I cannot get up to hull speed except in flat water with a following wind.  At the same speeds, his engine will run at lower RPMs and have lower fuel consumption.  And my friend's engine is so much quieter than hours that it is a little offputting to me to operate it at power because I can't judge my speed by the sound. 

I have given a lot of thought to the rudder issue.  The new rudders are approximately $2500 the last time I asked Catalina for a quote.  You may have that money to spend for an upgrade in performance but I decided it wasn't worth it compared to things I wanted to spend the money on, like new sails and a folding prop (still the best investment I have made on our boat).  But I would bet you $20 that the 1988 boat has water in the rudder if it is original to the boat.  Not only did Catalina move to a stainless steel internal structure for the rudder on the 1997 boat, they also filled the rudder with urethane so the water infiltration on the earlier boats would not happen. 

I also doubt that the engine wiring harness has been replaced unless the PO is a member of this forum.  We replaced ours and kept it for several months just to show people.  If you buy the 1988 boat, you should do that or have it done as soon as possible.  We decided not to put in the termstrips but instead direct-wired everything to the engine panel. 

The newer boat will give you better instrumentation at the engine panel.  Our boat does not have a high engine water temperature audible alarm at the engine panel or the sender at the thermostat.  The new boat also will give you a low oil pressure alarm, another feature that our boat lacks.  These are both on my list of things to add. 

On the 1988 boat, I would look at the water heater.  If it is original to the boat, it almost certainly is rusted out at the bottom and is leaking water into the bilge. I would also look at the waste tank hoses from the head to the holding tank and the holding tank to the discharge.  Again, if they have not been replaced, they almost certainly are saturated and you will want to replace them.  Not a pleasant job.  We're also in the process of replacing our bilge hoses because of the grime that has accumulated in them over the last 21 years. 

The 1997 boat is going to be deck-stepped and the 1988 boat may or may not be keel-stepped.  Doing it all over again, I would prefer the deck-stepped boat to the keel-stepped.  The mast coming through the cabin is louder, takes up more room in the cabin, is an eye-sore (if that sort of thing bothers you) and is a conduit for water into the bilge. 

JSI in Florida gave us a quote for new salon cushions in the blue leatherette and it was approximately $4000.  It was not considerable cheaper for regular fabric.  This did not include the v-berth or aft cabin cushions.  We are just finishing up washing all of our cushion covers - they actually washed up very well and the smell is gone.  The foam actually was in pretty good shape.

A lot of it has to aesthetics.  I love our exterior teak but only because I stripped, sanded and covered all of it with Cetol, an annual labor of love.  But I think his interior is far superior.  I prefer the finished look of the sealed woodwork inside.  If you buy the 1988 boat, I hope you like the smell of teak oil because you will be smelling a lot of it.  His overhead interior lighting also is superior - lights actually installed into the headliner where they are needed.  Catalina put more interior paneling into the V-berth and aft cabins in the newer boats and I think that looks far better than the fiberglass interiors. 

The 1997 boat will have Corian (or something like it) countertops in the galley and the head, a significant improvement over the Mark I boats.  I also think the head is laid out better in the Mark II boat.  The bulkhead makes the sink very difficult to use in a Mark I boat and they fixed that problem in the Mark II boat.  It sounds like a little thing unless you are over 6 feet and trying to brush your teeth. 

I love the wider cockpit of my friend's 1997 C34 when we are at the dock.  It is a much better boat for entertaining.  However, I end up sliding around too much when the boat is under sail.  I also think that our boat is more comfortable to sail from the wheel.  It is easy to brace yourself and see forward while sitting.  He also will say that our boat is a little faster but he puts that down to our newer sails and our folding prop.  I would say it is because of my superior seamanship but who knows who is right? 

I could go on and on about this and probably have already.  They are both great boats and I congratulate you for narrowing your choices to two excellent but very different variations on the same theme.  But my advice is don't buy the 1988 boat thinking you can turn it into the 1997 boat.  You'll spend a lot more than $30,000 in the process and you'll end up with a nicely upgraded 1988 boat that still is significantly different.  Buy the 1988 boat if you honestly like it better than the 1997 boat.  If you like the 1997 boat better, spend the extra money now and use your extra time to go sailing, which I think is supposed to be the point of this whole exercise.   

Good luck! 

[Wayne]

I think the last sentences in claygr's post (the immediately previous post) really struck to the heart of your decision.  There are significant differences between the two boats, the transom and the engine size being perhaps the most significant.  Whichever boat you buy, assuming that you are going to keep it for awhile, you will start to see other upgrades that you would like to have (chartplotter?  New autopilot?  New sails?  A-spinaker?  etc, etc, etc).  Buy the boat that you really like.  Your upgrades are not a financial investment, by and large.  They will be an investment in your personal enjoyment and satisfaction.  Buy the platform that you can feel good about upgrades knowing that you will most likely not be getting your money back should you sell your boat.

[Stu Jackson]

1.  With a 1988 model it appears that the traveler bolt and alternator bracket issues would not be a problem?

That's correct.  Only the 1986 & some 1987 boats had the traveler issue.  Physically check the '88 boat if you buy it, during the survey, to assure that more than a single screw per side goes into the embedded backing plate that is there.  The M25XP inherently has the bracket upgrade, it's one of the main mods they made to the basic M25 engine.

2.  I still need to check to see if the wiring harness has been replaced?  Cost to do if not done?

As Steve said, depends on DIY or others, Ken Heyman recently had his done by an electrician, he may have the numbers.  Alternately, you could simply reuse the old wires and just install the voltmeter by following the wiring diagrams provided in the tech wiki on this subject.  The wires themselves are usually OK for ninety percent of the wiring going back and forth between the engine and the cockpit.

3.  I need to see if the 1988 has had the rudder upgraded to the new model. (it seems like this is a big improvement in handling?)

I've said it's the difference between power steering and regular.  That said, it shouldn't be a deal breaker or maker.  I still have the OEM rudder on our boat and it works just fine, no rudder issues on our 5th haulout in 13 years for a 1986 boat, so not all old rudders "weep."  I've "driven" Dave Davis' 1988 boat with the newer rudder.  It's nice, not a "must have."

4.  23 year old standing rigging vs 14 year old rigging?  is this an issue?

As said, depends on the history.  If 23 year old rigging has been replaced, when and by whom?  14 year old rigging should be considered in need of replacement.

5.  Cost to replace/recover cushions?  (both settees and sleeping cabins)

Noted in earlier replies.  Depends on condition and your tastes.

6.  Add on swim platform.  Thoughts on cost to do so?

Ask Jon Perry:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4456.15.html

7.  Stern pulpit seats?

This is an easy add to a Mark I.  We have only one, port side, 'cuz Al Watson made one for us as a gift.  Our adjustable backstay vang and BBQ are to starboard, and I didn't need or want two of them.

8.  After rudder upgraded, any differences in handling?  Any differences in single-handling?

No difference in single handing at all, why would you think so?  If you use an autopilot when singlehanding, you learn very quickly how to trim your sails to avoid overloading the pilot.  See: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5445.0.html

9.  What is the best size wheel for handling/single-handling?

It's immaterial.  See Item 8.

10.  Is the different backstay that big of an issue?

Not really, although it has two main benefits:  tightens the forestay, and avoids the head knocking if you don't raise it.  I highly recommend it, I used a Garhauer split adjuster and a Garhauer vang.

Assuming the boats are in good condition otherwise, are there any other contrasting issues I should be aware of?

1.  Difference of easily adding a holder to keep the fridge box cover up!  
2.  Regardless of which one you end up with, replacement of engine hoses and the ones to the water heater under the galley sink will most likely be required.  Just a nice way to learn about your new engine.  See the Critical Upgrades topic.
3.  Colors and "personality."  To many people, most Mark IIs look alike, although I can tell some differences due to my experience with these boats, the Mark Is are visibly different right away because of different striping and deck colors.  It all depends on what "flutters your heart" when you see "your boat" from your dinghy.
4.  Electrical systems:  These are by far the most possible for variations between boats.  If the PO was a marina hopper and you like to anchor out, you'll have to pay more attention to the electrical system.  We have plenty of help available here when you get that far.  Don't forget the cost of new batteries.
5.  The port side in the V berth has a larger and higher locker, so there's nowhere to put down a book on that side.

[Kyle Ewing]

I've owned by 1990 for 8 years.  Knowing what I know now, I'd take the following into consideration If I was making a decision between the 1988 and 1997:

*  Exterior teak.  I prefer the look of the teak on my 1990 when it's maintained, however I hate maintaining it.
Engine.  Overall I'd prefer more horsepower.  The M25XP is fine in flat water, but I'd like extra horsepower when motoring into waves.

*  Swim platform/walk through transom.  I couldn't live without a swim platform and deep ladder.  I don't miss the walk through, but might if I wanted to scuba dive from the boat or frequently used the dinghy.  Boarding from the stern might be nice, but I don't miss it.


Things I'd consider that aren't specific to model, but would affect my enjoyment and would require time and expense to correct:

*  Electrical system including batteries:  Does it support how I'd use it?  Are batteries shot or undersized?

*  Sails and running rigging:  A new jib and main might be $4k.  Do you need a cruising spinnaker?  Do the halyards and sheets need to be replaced?  Is the mainsail reefing system effective?

*  Canvas:  Does it have the dodger/bimini you need?  How much life is left on it?

*  Dinghy and other extras:  Does one include the dinghy?

*  Electronics including chart plotter/radar