GPS/Depth/Radar/AIS

[Stephen Butler]

We sail off western Florida, but are now planning to extend our cruising grounds into the Gulf and back around to the Bahamas, then who knows where (retirement is coming up!).  We currently have an aging RayMarine autopilot, RayMarine wind/depth/knotmeter combo, and use paper charts and 2 handheld GPSs.  We also have a full compliment of safety gear, a vhf, etc.  It is all working well, but we are thinking of adding at least a GPS/Plotter at the helm, and possibly a bit more electronics if needed/affordable.  Weather updates would be a particularly nice-to-have, given the number of times we have been "surprised" that weather reports were less than accurate.  We did our shopping a couple of years ago, when we thought we were going to Houston, so are now woefully out of date.  Any recommendations on minimum screen size, brand, networking or not, accuracy of weather data, etc?  We have contacted Garmin and RayMarine suppliers and of course they are all ready to speedily turn our cockpit into the deck of the starship Enterprise. Do we really need side and foreward scanning sonar?  Or 3D real time pictures of where we are sailing?  The list of features is enormous and admittedly impressive, but seems to be a bit over the top.  Some suggestions to start our search would sure be appreciated. The budget is in the $2000 to $3000 range.   

[rirvine]

I would suggest that you look into using a PC and one or of the many navigation packages (Raymarine offer one too) that are available or a MAC with the macENC software package.  All of these can take input from NMEA and Seatalk (via a Seatalk to NEMA converter box) and have similar features as the proprietary solutions but with the big screens, real keyboards, and the power of modern laptops.   I have been using a MAC with macENC for many years for an original cost of $800.00 - second laptop, software, Seatalk to NEMA convert box.   

You can also get great software on the iPhone as well - check out MotionX.

Ray

[Stu Jackson]

A lot of the answer has to be what you are comfortable with, and what condition your eyesight is or may be!  While I agree that the Enterprise comment has great merit and we enjoy the lack of clutter at the helm and the ability to see forward without needing a stepladder, other folks are different and like all the bells and whistles right there.  They could then tend to be slaves to being behind the wheel.  Some folks may not even know what a real paper chart is!  The flip side of that is they require large screens to see the surrounding areas.

Ray's Mac approach is very slick and uses free charts and works, I've seen it in action.  He also has numerous standard gauge readouts which include both true and apparent wind speed and all sorts of other good information.

The advantage of the computer approach is being able to program in routes and do much more easy chart planning than is available on a chartplotter or handheld GPS.  We had a discussion just the other day over on co.com about chartplotters (see: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=114063 ) and I noted: "...if they use the same Garmin Map Source charts, the only difference is the screen size, so why's one a chartplotter and the handheld is "only" a GPS????"

For years we used an old Magellan GPS Blazer which only included numerical readouts, no electronic charts.  Moving up to a Garmin GPSMap 76 Cx opened up a whole new world to me.  But mainly for ease of inputting or using waypoints, because instead of having to name a buoy LM76, we could just do a Go To on the Garmin without using up waypoints for buoys that were clearly right there on the screen.  The small screen worked just fine and we have a plastic holder for it right at the helm.  I use rechargeable batteries which last a full sailing day.  We could, if we chose, run power and plug it in, but that would reduce its ability to move around and be used by others in the cockpit or bringing it down below.  

I personally find stuff "behind the wheel" as extremely limiting, even daysailing: our autopilot control head is located within easy reach of both behind the wheel and in the cockpit, and I rarely spend much time behind the wheel.  Steve Dolling reported in his 1,500 Mile Update:  Weekend sailing, you stand behind the wheel.   Doing serious miles, you relax more comfortably in the cockpit and you can't see instruments behind the wheel.  That said, he installed his large 8 inch screen chartplotter at the companionway.  See his blog for details and photos (it's linked at his update report topic, here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5270.0.html).

I've been on boats with very large screens, like the Raymarine C80s, and for the sailing we do here, and what I would consider you would be involved with, the speed of the (sail) boat and the complexity of the possible harbor approaches would be the factor in screen size requirements.  The huge C80 didn't show me much more than I could or needed to see than my Garmin.  However, for new areas and tricky limited visibility, something bigger would help that could be seen from both behind the wheel and the cockpit.  Steve's approach appears to be the best of all worlds.

In most cases, one has planned ahead and isn't simply relying on the GPS or the chartplotter (whatever you call them since they use the same databases) to maneuver into some place new without planning ahead.  Since you can't see airplane perspectives of harbors when you're on the boat, I have never been able to understand the concept of providing that information on a screen, but then we know how to read and use charts.

That said, by the time you end up doing your purchase those "extra" features that are wowin' them in the marinas these days may well be the standard and much less expensive.  You can always turn those features you don't like off!   That's one of the features of the Garmin GPS that we like, you can customize the screens as you want.

Ease of use?  I've read that many folks have trouble with some manufacturer's designs which they claim are less intuitive than others.  I figure if you decide to buy, you've either tried it out in the store or you'll learn your model very quickly and that would most likely not be an issue.  I had trouble with the original Garmin GPS72s because their inputs and look ups took three menus to get through, but that was just lousy programming (or a programmer who never had to use the equipment! ), but they've improved since by adding a simpler Go To button - wow, how clever!

You mentioned weather, which in your neck of the woods is very important.  SSB would give you that with a computer and grib files. But there must be a better way and less expensive, I just don't know what that is.  And a SSB is way expensive.

The last issue is integration.  Some folks like having the GPS tell the helm what to do.  I never saw the need to do that, but many do.

Happy hunting, you're right, there is a lot of stuff out there.

[waterdog]

I have a Garmin 4208 mounted in the companionway as Stu suggests.   I have a great view from the cockpit seats, I configure anchor drag alarms from inside in my underwear in the dark of night, and I have a great view from the helm.   The only downside is no control from behind the wheel.    I use Foster for that purpose, you might try the optional remote control.   I also have a 520s mounted at the wheel which I almost never use other than as a fish finder.   

We run AIS from the cheap Miltech unit.  Works great.   Our Radar is a Garmin low def 18 inch.  Airmar "triducer" gives us NEMA 2000 depth, speed, and water temperature.  I still haven't got around to wiring in the autopilot and wind instruments.  I haven't bothered running the display inside to the 21" flat screen, though it is capable.  I also haven't connected the unit to the computer to allow the night watch to view movies on the plotter, also capable.   

You can get XM weather for this unit.   It seemed to be limited to the United States, so I didn't bother, but it might be exactly what you are looking for. 

Having done this, I would do it exactly the same again.   I wouldn't find a unit below in the nav very useful and I wouldn't want it behind the wheel unless I could have another one in the front of the cockpit.  I particularly like the interaction between the radar and the chart plotter.  Any tools to figure out what the Mexican fish boats are doing in the dark of night are a real bonus.

[waterdog]

By the way, the days of drilling holes in your deck to run cables up to rail mounted GPS antennas are dead.    This unit came with an underdeck mount for the GPS antenna.   I have mine mounted next to the holding tank vent, above the shelf in the main salon.   Never any problem at all with reception.   

[Kyle Ewing]

My current set-up has the chartplotter at the nav table and Radar/depth/speed at the helm.  For my sailing style the person at the helm usually isn't the navigator.  The radar is connected to the chart plotter via NMEA to show real time information (speed, course, waypoint, etc).  It's usually easier to navigate from the comfort of the cabin, especially when there's wind, rain, or darkness to contend with so the helmsperson can concentrate on driving.

My ideal setup would be to be able to display radar and chartplotter data at both the helm and nav table.  I'd move depth and speed instruments to near the traveler or some other location where it could be seen from anywhere in the cockpit.

[MarkT]

I have setup a small laptop computer with gps and free software. Total investment was approx $400
The laptop is powered from 12V via an inverter since I could not obtain a 12V adapter for the particular laptop I bought. The usb gps was about $50 and all the software and charts were free.

There are some notes in the wiki on how to setup pc navigation.
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Nav_Station_PC_Set-up
http://www.sping.com/seaclear/

As far as weather is concerned.
Web access via cell phone connection or web browser on cell phone like iPhone works well when you have coverage.
Outside US waters you may need a satellite based system.

Mark Tamblyn

[Stephen Butler]

Gentlemen, many thanks for your helpful thoughts and recommendations.  You are absolutely correct in your comments about "clutter" behind the wheel, but still needing to reference data close to the helm.  You have gotten us going in an entirely new direction (pc navigation) and we will be checking this out.  Also, the suggestions on acquiring real time weather data are really good....never thought of using our cell phone! Will keep you posted on the outcome.  Many thanks.

[Mike and Joanne Stimmler]

Stephen,
I recently added the nav pod at the helm with all the instruments and chartplotter and I really like it there. My  old system had the Signet speed and depth instrument on the stbd bulkhead and it always seemed that someone was sitting in front of it or lounging up against it. I was always yelling for someone to move. The same with mounting by the traveler. I have rented boats with this arrangement and sure enough, someone would always be standing in front of it on the first step going down the companionway.

Different strokes for different folks, but this works great for me.

Mike

[David Sanner]

Lots of options...

I personally don't like too much gear at the helm of my
MkI for the sailing that I typically do.  (However there
are some very powerful compact / clip-on chart plotters
out there that mount nicely on the binnacle guard than can
give you best of both worlds)

Here's a thread about chartplotters that shows my solution, a 17" lcd
display that can swing from the chart table area into the companionway.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3387.0.html

The laptop is on a shelf in the hanging locker below.  All
run on 12v for lower power usage. (I've attached another photo/view)
All of my instruments are connected via NMEA (using $10 serial
to USB converters) plus a USB puck style GPS receiver.

It also doubles as a media center for my mp3 music & movies.
If you're looking into purchasing a new laptop the 'Netbooks'
make nice low power units and sell for around $300.  
There are even Dell Netbooks that have HDTV tuners built-in.
Macs are also an option of course.  Both have the capability
to relay NMEA data to an iphone/itouch handheld
http://www.panbo.com/archives/2009/11/sailtimer_gone_iphone_handheld.html

As nice as laptops are it's nice to have some self contained
low-power / backup units like a hand held GPS or VHF.
Here's a nice new unit from Standard Horizon... a combined VHF & AIS.
Single antenna and reduced cabling.  

http://tinyurl.com/aisvhf

[Stu Jackson]

I've had a couple of discussions about AIS over on co.com; here's one:  http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=639331&highlight=AIS

and another

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=598588&highlight=AIS

and

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=587426&highlight=AIS

I'm not sure if one of these links has this great idea I had about INTEGRATING a VHF and an AIS unit to KISS.

Looks like they're finally getting around to it, only in Dave's example it's backwards, because most people have their radios like the linked one down below.

Steve's discussion about where instruments "belong" on our boats is quite up to the skipper, but I believe (as Dave notes) BEHIND the helm isn't one of 'em, nor is down below since for singlehanders there is no separate navigator ("nagivator"!) and helmsman.  

Those swing out thingies are way cool!