pointing

[Ron S]

I am having trouble pointing as high as several other boats on the lake. (Hunter 340, C-230, etc.)  Looking at my mast, it appears that it is either straight up, or possible a touch forward. It is definately forward of the others.  If I rake the mast back a bit will it help? C-34 1584

[Tom P, IMPULSE #233, '86]

Ron,

Mast rake, along with many other things, determines how well a boat points...

Although I'm new to the C34, I have plenty of keel boat experience, and if your mast is leaning forward, that's not good for going to windward...

But how much rake does the C34 like???  I have no idea; hopefully someone else here can answer that for us...

If know one here knows for sure, I'd check to see where your rake is cuurently; and if it's forward, move it to straight up and see how it sails...If it's good, then I'd start moving the top of the mast aft an inch or two at the time and see how that does...Keep in mind that these changes may be very hard to "feel" while sailing without a "pace boat"...It always helps to put the boat up against other boats (always the same group) while checking for improvements.  Also keep in mind that it doesn't follow the logic of "if a little rake does a little good, then a lot of rage does a lot of good"...you might point well with a lot of rake, but you will greatly choke boat speed---you have to find the happy medium...

If I were you, I'd also start checking a lot of other things as well...A poorly shaped headsail or the wrong luff tension can also cause you to point badly...Having the wrong tension on the forstay will cause you to point poorly...A poorly trimmed/shaped mainsail can cause you to point poorly...A poor bottom job can cause you to point poorly...Sailing in bad air (the other boats' lee) will cause you to point poorly---are you sailing in the same wind the other boats are???
I've been in races where the crew says "hey, everyone overthere is out-pointing the heck out of us"...Further investigation reveils they aren't really out-pointing us, they are getting a big lift...
 
Another very important issue here is are you trying to point with boats that SHOULD NOT be able to point with???  If you've got the wing keel, you should not be able to point with well sailed, non-winged keels...

I don't know about the C23 you mentioned, but a buddy of mine has a H34...Currenty he can out-point my C34 (same keel on both boats)...Although the specs on our boats appear to be close, the shape of his bottom is alot different that mine---H34 has a much deeper and flatter hull design...And his sails are newer than mine too...So right now, I'm writing off my lack of pointing ability to my cruising genoa---but a new sail is on the way :-)  I'll also be checking my mast rake as well...

Good Luck!

[Charlie Pearsall]

I keep about an 8" aft rake (measured by pendulum from the masthead to the boom) on Delirious.  I can uauslly point within 35º of apparant, but speed suffers greatly (tall rig w/wing & 135%).  I find that slacking off a bit, say to 40º apparent (45º true) gives enough extra speed to make it worth doing.  Unless there is a Hunter to cover or a mark to make.

Make sure to sight up the mast to be sure the rake is even and not just above the spreaders.  We don't have the whippy masts and they should be kept in column.

[Ron S]

fingers weren't working - I meant a C320

[Mike Smith]

The mast on Breezer is definitely not raked, and this is an adjustment I've been wanting to make for some time now.  The dealer in Mobile said 4" to 6" was standard. There have been other posts on this topic, some very lengthy and detailed.  I have a furling system on Breezer - do I have to remove the spool and/or headfoil or can I make the necessary adjustments with it still in place?  What are the exact steps in raking the mast other than "loosen the forestay and tighten the backstay"?  As far as a backstay adjuster is concerned, looking at the diameter of the mast on Breezer, you'd need a hydraulic system to bend it!!

Mike Smith
S/V Breezer
www.mikejansmith.com

[Tom P, IMPULSE #233, '86]

Mike,

A backstay adjuster isn't always used to bend a mast...On J Boats and the like, the mast is tapered and meant to be bent; and bent alot...One primary reason for bending a mast is to change the shape of the mainsail; move the draft in the mainsail...Bent mast usually equals flatter sail for heavy air (when going to windward)...Bending the mast also affects headstay tension and genoa luff tension as well...

I think it's safe to say the "telephone pole" mast on the C34 was not intended to be bent by a backstay adjuster; or at least not bent a significant amount like on J Boats...I believe the purpose of the backstay adjuster on our boats is to change the headstay tension, which also affects genoa luff tension...Since the mast doesn't bend a significant amount, you really aren't affecting the mainsail shape at all...

If the wind is up, you want a tight headstay and tight genoa luff while sailing to windward...In medium air, I think you want a "medium" tension on the headstay and genoa luff (going to windward)...And in light air, light tension and light genoa luff (going to windward)...

On a downwind run, you want the forestay and genoa luff fairly loose in almost all wind conditions...

If you are sailing on a windy day, you'd tighten the backstay while going to windward, then slack it all the way going downwind...By slacking the backstay on a downwind run (reducing forestay/genoa luff tention), you are adding a lot of draft to the headsail...

On my last boat (telephone pole mast), the backstay adjuster didn't bend the mast, it just moved the head of the mast (about 3" max--didn't bend the mast, just chanced mast rake) which changed forestay/genoa luff tension (like the C34)...We'd tighten it upwind, slack off a little while off the wind, and loosen it all the way downwind...And on light air days, I felt like we still weren't getting enough shape in the genoa going downwind, so we'd slack the halyard slightly as well...This wasn't necessary on med to heavy air days though...

I'd also be very careful putting too much purchase on the backstay adjuster, or installing a hydraulic backstay adjuster...You could easily put too much load on the boat and rig which could lead to a massive rigging/boat failure...And since the mast isn't tapered on the C34 (and meant to bent), most of the backstay load is basically being transfered to the mast base; trying to push the mast through the deck or keel (depending if you are deck stepped or keel stepped)...
 
Now, on to Adjusting the mast...You are correct, it's not as easy as loosing the forestay and tightening the backstay...All shrouds are effected, and should be involved when moving the mast...This can be a very tedious process if done correctly...You will probably have to adjust the shrouds several different times to reach the right combination...

First, you need a rigging tension gauge, a 50' tape measure, a small heavy object to hang from the main halyard, and most importantly, a very calm day--no wind, no waves...

the overview is this:  
Slack all shrouds a little...Get mast rake where you want it to be (the max rake)...Tighten forestay and backstay (using backstay adjuster) to recommended tension.  Now set mast in column (port/starbd) using the upper shrouds and a tape measure; then set to proper tension...Now adjust lower shrouds as necessary to keep the mast center straight; adjust shrouds while sighting up the front of the mast from the bottom...And all the while double check the tension of all shrouds to make sure you are not overloading or underloading them...

Once you think you've finished, slack the backstay adjuster and doublecheck tension on your other shrouds---tension on the lower aft shrouds may increase...You want to make sure they are not being overloaded...

The other trick is to mark your backstay adjuster to make sure you do not over-tighten it while sailing and overload another shroud or forestay as well...

Once you think you've got everything right, go sailing in 10-12 knots of breeze...Once close-hauled, see if your leeward shrouds are swinging in the breeze...They should be a tiny bit loose, but no movement...If they move, snug up the turnbuckles until they don't swing---only adjust the leeward side, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ADJUST THE WINDWARD (the loaded) SIDE!!!  Once finished with one side, tack the boat and check the "new" leeward side and adjust as necessary...

Now go back to the dock and check the current tension of the shrouds---this new tension is what they need to be set at...Now double check the masthead to see if the rake changed and see if the mast is still in column...Since you messed with the shrouds while sailing, it will probably be slightly off...Start at the very beginning of the process to get masthead in the right spot, but this time tension the shrouds to the setting you arrived at from sailing...This time everything should work out and your leeward shrouds should be snug when sailing...

Sorry to be so long-winded, but there aren't any shortcuts!!!

Hope this helps...

[Tom P, IMPULSE #233, '86]

Mike,

Sorry, got so long-winded before I forgot about the furler question...I think it greatly depends on the brand of furler you have...On a Harken, I'm pretty sure the drum has to come off...But I think other Brand furlers may be done with drum in place, and yet other Brands must be taken completely off...The only way to know for sure is to check the furler manual, or ask someone here who has the same unit...

[SteveLyle]

Tom P. -

Sounds like a complete set of directions for tensioning the rig.  I've also looked in the FAQ's for this, since I repainted/rebuilt the mast this spring, added a furler, etc., and I know the rig is far from 'tuned'.

Q:  Where can I get the recommended tension for a C34 tall rig/deep keel?

Thanks,
Steve

[Tom P, IMPULSE #233, '86]

Steve,

The mast tuning process I mentioned above came straight from the Loos Tension Gauge instruction manual (well, my memory of the manual)...After doing a lot of research, I wouldn't attempt to tune a rig without a tension gauge; research reveiled most rig failures are caused by rig tension being too loose...

Anyway, as far as tension goes; the Loos Gauge also came with a chart showing shroud diameter and their associated breaking strengths...They recommend the "generic" setting for any boat should be something like 20% of breaking strength---I don't have the Loos Manual with me right now, just going on memory; could have been 15%, or even 30%...But for some reason 20% rings a bell.

I talked to a local rigger awhile back and he told me he uses the "generic" breaking strength formula as well...

It may not be perfect, but it gets you pretty darn close...The only real change from this is  on the leeward shrouds while sailing...The rigger, my sailmaker, and Loos all say you must sail the boat to fine tune the port/starbd shrouds...

And if you have a tension gauge, and record the proper tensions when finished, it's much easier to tune from then on...No need to sail then adjust...Just use your previous tension...

Does anyone know what tension Catalina recommends for the shrouds???

Tom