Engine Starting issue

Ron Hill · August 13, 2009, 06:25:22 PM

Ken : Thanks for your statement that .. "when I replaced my battery/cable ends ... Starts right up now".

If you have a M25XP and you suspect that hot air is trapped inside the cylinder - open the decompression lever!!

The real problem with restarting a warm/hot engine is in the battery cable connections!! Same thought!!

Ted Pounds · August 14, 2009, 09:43:44 AM

Quote from: Ron Hill on August 11, 2009, 07:02:16 PM
Mark : For the life of me I've never understood why people use ONLY the starting battery to start the engine.
I've said many times that I use the ALL position - so that every battery amp is available from the house and starting batteries. If I could, I'd even plug in my flashlight. Much easier on the starter!

Ron,
I would occasionally use only the starting battery to make sure all was well with it. When the house bank is dead is not the time to find out that the start battery wont cut it alone.

Ron Hill · August 14, 2009, 06:49:47 PM

Ted : Not to belabor the point, but a battery minitor will tell you the health state of your batteries.

horsemel · August 18, 2009, 07:05:26 PM

I spent about two hours on Saturday standing on my head getting at the engine ground to check it and see if that might be my problem. The hardest part was getting to the thing and getting a wrench on it. You guys were right about there still being the original electrician's tape on the wires. There was the heavy black cable from the batteries and two small wires that meet at a single connector to the ground bolt. When I got them off I discovered that the bottom of the bolt was either corroded or covered with Universal gold paint (couldn't tell which), the lock washer was corroded and the connectors for the wires weren't shiny. I could not see the engine face except with a mirror and it looked ok. I took some 150 grit sand paper and 0000 steel wool to all the fittings and the engine face and got them good and shiny. Reconnected it all. I had occasion to start and stop the engine several times the rest of the weekend and had no problem with the engine starting. I am hoping this solved my problem. If it did, I owe a big thanks to all of you. This weekend I am rebedding a chain plate and after that I intend to figure out the wiring of the 12b switch, charger and battery system. I will keep you posted. Again, thanks a lot for what, so far seems to be great help.
Thanks
Mark Mueller

jmnpe · August 18, 2009, 10:00:53 PM

Hi Mark,

As I have noted in several previous posts, that "engine ground" on the end of the bell housing is notorious for having lots of corrosion present on any of our older boats: it's just in a very nasty location. Stu and I, and perhaps others, have moved all but a single large ground cable off of the engine and to a post or bus bar a foot or so away in a less nasty location, and then put all the other things that need a connection to the engine ground on the remote termination point.

After your good cleaning of the connection point, the other thing you need to do is go back with some Boeshield T9 corrosion protection spray and cover all of the exposed cable lug and engine areas around the ground connection point. You can buy it at West Marine or many other places. You will only need to use a modest amount of the T9: the goal is just to seal the connection interface point ( i.e. - battery cable ring terminal / engine block interface ) to air and all the other nasty things that end up appearing in that area over time. Apply enough, however, that you can see the T9 cover and even run down between the ring lug and the engine material to ensure a good seal around that area.

The only other thing that most people forget to check when having starting problems is the battery switch itself. I chased starting problems the better part of a day on my boat before I dropped back to basics ( i.e. - assume nothing! ) and bypassed only one position of the original battery switch and eliminated the weak starting problem I was having at the time.

Regards,

John

Mike and Joanne Stimmler · August 19, 2009, 09:54:37 AM

Mark,
Sounds like you have the ground problem figured out.
However, every time I hear about someone using steelwool on a boat, it brings back memories of a helper of mine who used it to do some cleaning and I wound up with orange freckles all over the deck and cockpit from the rust marks from it.

John, did you wind up replacing the 12B switch or just cleaning the contacts?

Mike

jmnpe · August 19, 2009, 10:09:15 AM

Mike,

I just replaced it. The contact had gotten loose enough that it had a lot of arcing damage, and I was tired of screwing around with it.

John

Ron Hill · August 19, 2009, 04:10:07 PM

Mike : You're right about steel wool. A great substitute is bronze wool. NO rust speckles!!

As John said it's cheaper/easier to just replace the 1/2/A switch. Incidentally, the major arcing of those contacts come from changing battery selection while the alternator is putting out hi amps. That's why my 1/2/A switch stays in the ALL position (while the engine is running) and the starting battery is on a separate switch!

I soldered the main ground connections about 21 years ago and they were fine when I reconnected them to my new engine 21 years later to almost the same place on the bell housing.

Beside BO-7 another handy thing to keep on the boat is a can of Tuner Cleaner (from RadioShake).

horsemel · August 19, 2009, 05:48:05 PM

I will get some boeshield and put it on the connection. Sounds like something to put on the battery connections as well. I used the steel wool because it was what I had. You may be right about the orange speckles, so we will see. Awhile back there was a post from someone who had black soot all over the engine comparment from a too loose belt situation. My previous owner had the same situation and everytime I work on the engine I end up looking like a coal miner. What is the best way to clean the engine? I have been told to spray degreaser all over the engine. Another said to use a pressure washer and pump it out the bilge, but I can't imagine the havoc that would wreak on electronics and the environment etc. Is there a good product for this and a method that works well or do I just live with the black stuff?
Mark Mueller

Stu Jackson · August 19, 2009, 08:02:16 PM

Mark, there are all sorts of engine degreasers. I originally purchased a "foamy" one, but never used it because it looked like it would require more water to remove it than if I'd used water to clean the engine to begin with! Just recently used Castrol Engine Cleaner, it's like a really strong Fantastik or 409.

Ron Hill · August 20, 2009, 03:30:49 PM

Mark : I definitely would NOT use a degreaser. You're in a "got ya"!

The dirt maker is the oil pan breather, because the oily vented air makes anything/everything stick to the engine/engine compartment. You can put the oil pan breather exhaust into the air intake or make a filter like I did (old Mainsheet article).

I'd recommend that you wipe the engine down as best as you can, and don't let it get dirtier.
The best way to clean an engine - is don't let it get dirty!!

horsemel · August 20, 2009, 05:47:11 PM

Well, nothing like a great debate between Ron and Stu. I don't know what an oil pan rebreather is and maybe it does create lots of dirt. I know that the real fine black sooty stuff I have is from the belt because that is how I found out the previous owner had the belt tension too slack. Stu it sounds like you have used engine cleaner with some success. Ron, why would you not use an engine cleaner? Does it cause damage that the rest of us are not aware of? I will look into doing a filter for the oil pan rebreather, but it will be down on the maintenance list. What is the Main Sheet reference for this or what are the search key words?
Mark Mueller

Ron Hill · August 20, 2009, 06:19:51 PM

Mark : There's no debate with Stu, I just telling you what I'd do!!

The problem with the degreaser is cleaning the degreaser and the stuff it dissolved OFF.
I wouldn't use water because of all of the electrical connections (+ starter & alternator) and the sound proofing is FOAM that will soak up any water and the paneling under the sound proofing is plywood which when wet will start to separate. Just a few of my reasons.

The problem with belt dust is from a too loose belt and most likely the pulleys are out of alignment !!

horsemel · August 21, 2009, 04:52:57 PM

Ron, you are right about the belt too loose. I discovered this right after we purchased Blue Moon four years ago. I replaced and tensioned the belt at that time and have not had any issues with that, just with the crud that was left. I think I'll put all this someplace down on my to do list. I try to do two or three sizeable projects each season. Right now the list for next season is to reset chain plates, repair some blisters and barrier coat and replace the water heater. I plan on enjoying the boat for the six weeks or so we have left in the season.
Mark Mueller

horsemel · August 24, 2009, 04:58:15 PM

I just got the new Sail Magazine and see a question about the engine ground answered by Nigel Calder. It seems that Stu and Rpn are in good company on their knowledge of this subject. It seems to have solved my problem. I want to thank fellow 34 owner Charlie Browning who saw my posts on this subject. Charlie is in my marina and is an electrician at a steel mill. He wandered over Saturday morning with some of his electronic gizmos so I now know what battery does what, how the charger works and that everything is probably ok. Charlie believes that the battery cables from Catalina are not heavy enough for the length of the run, but are adequate. He has three batteries in his house bank on the 12b switch, but added a fourth cranking battery in the lazerette that is not throught the 12b switch. Anyway, thanks again to all and hopefully this is the end of this subject.