Folding Wheel & Autopilot and New & Old Rudders

jksellers2@embarqmail.com · February 15, 2009, 08:31:51 AM

As the fairly new owner, 18 months, of our 2001 C34 MKII Lucky Days (#1560) we concluded that as we, mostly me, get older we find it more difficult to get around the 40" wheel and looked for alternatives. We settled on the Lewmar 36" folding wheel and installed it last Thursday ( after 3 trips to a machinist in order to make a metric designed wheel hub fit an SAE post). In any case, we then discovered that the new wheel hub is concave to the wheel vs. a straight hub on the old 40", and now I can't get the ST 4000+ autopilot hub plate attached to the new wheel as it wasn't designed to be flexible. I called the Lewmar tech folks and they don't have a mod kit to solve this problem. I've spoken to Stu about this and he advised me to toss the issue out to you and see if any of you have had a similar problem and/or can suggest a fix. If I can't find a solution to this problem I'll need to return the 36" wheel to Westmarine since I don't want the trade off to be the autopilot. Any suggestions on how to solve this issue are welcome.

Jon Schneider · February 15, 2009, 09:37:59 AM

Interesting... I've got the Lewmar 32" folding wheel and it is not concave. The Mk I has a narrower transom than your Mk II, which is why I went with a smaller wheel. The only problem I had, before I converted to a below-decks AP, was that my old Autohelm 4000 wheel pilot's brackets didn't fit the larger spokes of the Lewmar folding wheel. I was actually able to enlarge the hollows of the brackets with a dremel to make it work. Is your problem really about the brackets holding the wheel ring onto the hubs? Seems you could have longer, larger brackets fabricated by a metal shop to compensate for the angle caused by the concavity, no? It would be a shame after all of your fitting work to have to return the new wheel, but if the reason you want the folding benefit is to be able to get by the pedestal while at anchor, you might consider a quick-release nut for your original standard wheel instead of a folding wheel. Of course, that won't help you if what you want to do is get by the wheel easily while under sail. I have to say, however, that I don't really find the folding wheel all that much of a benefit under sail. It's not like I'm ever sailing with the rudder exactly dead-center, so it doesn't help if the wheel is canted a bit. It's not bad while at anchor, but the quick-release on a standard wheel would be better. Plus, while the folder is fairly sturdy, it's not as solid as a standard, non-folding wheel.

Ron Hill · February 15, 2009, 03:25:37 PM

jk : Let me give you something to think about.
I believe that the Mk II came with a 42 or 46 inch wheel while the Mk I came with a 34 inch wheel. The Mk I had the old standard rudder while the Mk II came with the elliptical rudder. The elliptical rudder has more surface area aft the rudder post (pivot point). Both rudders have the same surface area forward of the pivot point. I believe that Catalina went to the larger wheel to give more leverage.

I changed to the elliptical rudder (see Mainsheet article on that topic) and noted that it was "heavier" than my old rudder, but controllable with a 34 inch wheel. I'd like to increase to a 36 inch wheel, not go down in size with less leverage !!

Where you'll really note the wheel difference is when the wind pipes up over 15kts. I'd recommend that you stay with the same wheel diameter (or slightly smaller - if you must), if you go to a folding wheel.
A few thoughts.

Jon Schneider · February 15, 2009, 08:52:44 PM

Quote from: Ron Hill on February 15, 2009, 03:25:37 PM
I believe that the Mk II came with a 42 or 46 inch wheel while the Mk I came with a 34 inch wheel. The Mk I had the old standard rudder while the Mk II came with the elliptical rudder. The elliptical rudder has more surface area aft the rudder post (pivot point). Both rudders have the same surface area forward of the pivot point. I believe that Catalina went to the larger wheel to give more leverage. I changed to the elliptical rudder (see Mainsheet article on that topic) and noted that it was "heavier" than my old rudder, but controllable with a 34 inch wheel.

Ron, I have to disagree, though I'm sure the facts are on your side. Since upgrading to the elliptical rudder, I find there to be much less pressure on the wheel and the boat turns on a dime. It's especially noticeable in a stiff breeze. I really have to be severely over-canvassed now to round up. I have to say, while I haven't done a surface area analysis, I would say that the elliptical is much more balanced (fore and aft) than the original rudder. Just a feeling, though. It's funny, when I got the elliptical, it actually seemed like less of a rudder than the original one. I felt like I had lost surface area. It's probably not true, but I suspect that the elegance of its shape also contributes to its power. Net, net, I find the 32" Lewmar (though it's actually 33") to be more than adequate for the Mk I with an elliptical (didn't have the folder with the original rudder).

Hawk · February 15, 2009, 08:58:09 PM

Jon,
Did I read somewhere here that the change to an elliptical rudder benefits the wing keel boats but not necessary for those of us with fin keels.

Hawk

Jon Schneider · February 15, 2009, 09:06:05 PM

Quote from: Hawk on February 15, 2009, 08:58:09 PM
Jon,
Did I read somewhere here that the change to an elliptical rudder benefits the wing keel boats but not necessary for those of us with fin keels.

I can't vouch for what you've read, but it's the single best alteration I've made to my Mk I fin keel. I didn't think it would be such a noticeable change, but it's quite amazing... actually a different boat.

Stu Jackson · February 15, 2009, 09:09:14 PM

Quote from: Hawk on February 15, 2009, 08:58:09 PM
Did I read somewhere here that the change to an elliptical rudder benefits the wing keel boats but not necessary for those of us with fin keels.

That's simply not true. Dave Davis, FK/SR, #707, has one and it's like power steering compared to our standard rudder. The keels have absolutely nothing to do with it, Hawk.

jfssail · February 16, 2009, 09:18:52 AM

Two years back I replaced my 32" Edson wheel with a Lewmar 36"folding wheel. It is ellipical in shape and required a few minor modifications to my ST4000 autopilot bracket
First, the plastic "U" shaped brackets had to be enlarged to acomodate the slightly larger diameter spokes. Just use your dremel tool with tube sander.
Second, Go to Ace Hardware and buy some 1" dia x 1/8" rubberfawcet washers to fill the gap between the plastic brackets and the Autopilot hub, otherwise the hub keeps coming apart.
Mine has worked perfectly now for 2 seasons.
Also, the original Edson retainer nut worked with no modifications.

Jack F Stewart
1993 C36#1233 "Windancer"
Port Clinton, OH

Hawk · February 16, 2009, 10:12:18 AM

Must have been wishful thinking on my part.

One post did suggest to consider your sails as part of the consideration. Last spring I was out in 16-17 knots with full main and the 135 (the original sails-18yrs old) and I was on the edge of rounding up on the puffs and ready to reef.

The question is now to sail in similar conditions to see how the boat performs with the new North Sails main and 135..and the old rudder. Theoretically, without the old baggy sails I should have much less heel and less inclination to round up..............we shall see.......then we'll consider the elliptical rudder.

Hawk

Stu Jackson · February 16, 2009, 11:33:04 AM

Hawk, it's not the rudder, it's your 135 and a full (old and baggy) main - you're over canvassed in those winds. Yes, many racers will sail here with their 130s and a full main in conditions windier than that, but they're used to it, have rail meat, and have pretty flat sails designed for the conditions. They've sailed in 25 (and more) apparent with this setup. Me? Unless I'm racing, I run my 110 or 95 with a reefed main if I'm expecting conditions of that nature. ALL of the C34 material EVER written says throw a single reef in above 16 to 18 kts. Period. Regardless of what rudder you may have. Yes, newer, flatter sails would help, but it all depends on the kinda "ride" you like. BTW, think of "rounding up" as a darn GOOD thing. If you are overpowered, the boat heads into the wind and slows down, giving you not only an indication that you've got too much sail up, but it flattens the boat out. Consider the alternatives...

Hawk · February 16, 2009, 01:01:24 PM

Stu,

Sage advice. However, I was in the midst of the Yacht Club Sail Past with my 13 year old son and his friend as crew. As we arrived there was 5 knots and we began the process of sailing around a tight area getting into line behind our pennant boat. The wind quickly picked up to 10, 12, 14 then 16 we were in tight formation criss-crossing through 30 or 40 boats. Throwing a reef in the main, while prudent on paper, was not an option.....spilling the main as necessary worked fine.

Two 13 year olds got more sailing experience in those 2 hours than a month of reefed cruising. From wing on wing to close hauled to beam reach and over and over again.

My son's friend summed it up back at the dock: "Why would anyone want a power boat!"

Hawk

Stu Jackson · February 16, 2009, 02:02:23 PM

Great experience and story, Hawk. However, I believe that anyone should be able to reef their main, anytime, anywhere, because of just what you mentioned. On our boat, we can reef when closehauled, by letting the mainsheet out, traveler down, backwinding the main some (your maneuver is called a "fisherman's reef" BTW ) and using our double line reefing to lower the main to the pre-identified point on the main halyard. Takes all of 30 seconds and I can do it even when I'm alone. Even single line reefing setups should allow you to do that. Don't know how your boat is rigged, but the basic older factory setup requiring you to go to the mast is just plain dangerous, and has been superseded by much better and safer means, methods and techniques.

Hawk · February 16, 2009, 05:55:07 PM

Stu,
Your crew takes to the lash better than mine.........
Hawk

Ron Hill · February 16, 2009, 06:00:13 PM

Guys, Susan & D : The difference between the fin and the wing keel rudders is substantial. I put the overlays of the wing and fin original & elliptical rudders in the Mainsheet tech notes years ago.

As a starter the fin rudder is at least a foot longer/deeper than the wing rudder.
I'll let you all look up those articles and get the "exact" differences!!!

Ted Pounds · February 16, 2009, 06:43:02 PM

Hawk,
Stu is right about your sails making a big difference. However, the newer rudder can overcome the sins of old sails or failure to reef early enough. That's not to say that you will sail any faster, just that you will still be able to maintain control in situations like you described. But, even with the new sails and a new rudder, you'll find the best performance in those conditions, upwind, will be with a reef in the main.