Genoa replacement

[Ed Shankle]

I'm considering a new genoa this year. My sun shield fabric is torn and needs to be replaced anyway, plus the sail is old (might even be the original). So I'm thinking it might be better to make the investment now.
Here are my questions:
I'm working with Doyle, local to my marina. The salesman is offering me, at a discount, an upgrade on the fabric to a square weave dacron. I haven't seen it yet, but it supposedly looks like ripstop nylon. We'd do  bi-radial cut, like on the Quicksilver. It is 5.5 oz, lighter than the 7.2 used in the standard Quicksilver. Does anyone have any knowledge of this material? They have it as extra and are looking to use it up. That's why the discount.
2nd question; He says that between having my existing sail (stored at Doyle over the winter) plus having the spec's for many C-34's they have done over the years, they don't need to wait until the cover comes off the boat in the spring to measure, and can build it now. Said they would be fully responsible for any fit errors.
I'm a bit hesitant on that, as this is my 1st time buying a new sail. Is that reasonable for a common production boat, vs a custom built that surely would require a measurement?

thanks,
Ed

[Joe and Carol]

Cannot advise you on the fabric, but if they have your current sail and will measure it to insure fit that is a good practice.  I would always ask a sail maker to guarantee fit on any plan.  Good Luck!

[Ron Hill]

Ed : Can't advise you on the material, but I have a bi-radial cut an love it. 
I'd advise that if you have a 135% and especially a 150% to go with the heavier material.  A big Genoa needs strength.  I had mine made out of a cruising laminate material and NO air blows thru that material!

[tonywright]

I had the Doyle Quicksilver on my last boat, and it held its shape very well. Helped to win trophies in its first season!

Tony

[Ed Shankle]

In my latest conversation with Doyle, the salesman was telling me that sailmakers have been moving away from using a foam luff pad for furled head sails and instead are sewing in a line (1/2" I think) along the luff. Supposed to be better for avoiding memory curves in the fabric and for a better wrap.
Anyone have experience with this? He said they would use a foam pad if I wanted, but was suggesting the line option.

thanks,
Ed

[Albreen]

Hi Ed,
My previous boat 150% genoa purchase from North Sails about 3 years ago had a sewn in rope line at the luff for maintaining shape when shortening sail - actually there were two separate lines sewn in together - instead of foam. It was the first I had heard of this type of padding and it worked very well. However, I don't know if this was better or not compared to foam but recall the sailmaker very convincingly stating it was.

While on the subject of a new headsail, the new to me C34 came with a 130 genoa. I intend to rejoin the local yacht club "beer can races" this upcoming season with the C34 and want to upgrade this sail to be competitive. Does anyone have a recommendation for a "cruising" version of a good sail for local racing? I think the C34 will do well but not with this sail when the wind is light. We see all kinds of wind and conditions over the course of a season.

[Jon Schneider]

My previous boat 150% genoa purchase from North Sails about 3 years ago had a sewn in rope line at the luff for maintaining shape when shortening sail - actually there were two separate lines sewn in together - instead of foam. It was the first I had heard of this type of padding and it worked very well. However, I don't know if this was better or not compared to foam but recall the sailmaker very convincingly stating it was.

Ditto for me.  Couldn't really tell if the rope version was superior; seemed like the flavor du jour.  Interestingly, my latest genoa, a Kappa-cut 140, does not have any kind of foam or rope luff.  Clarke Bassett, the owner/designer of Kappa (http://www.kappasails.com) sails talked me out of it.  I think he just cuts the sail better to maintain its shape when reefed.  Makes for a smaller roll and the sail is pretty darn perfect down to a 110. 

[Footloose]

Paul,

I had a new set of sails made at Vermont Sailing partners in Winooski, VT.  I had been very happy with them.  Have been competitive in the beer can races.  Bill Fastigi who owns the place is a world class Lightning racer.  He has helped me rig a few things.  He is very helpfull and knowledgable.  He will go out and measure your boat.

[Albreen]

Hi Dave,
I know Bill well and fully agree with your recommendation of his work and his loft. I should have been more precise with my question i.e., recommended size, cut of sail and material that would be for cruising, have decent longevity and yet competitive for a decent run around the cans. I think a 6.5 - 7 oz dacron 150% will do and welcome others thoughts and experiences with what has worked for them. I realize this is one of the those questions where the more $'s you throw at it, the better the sail. But, I'm looking for a good general fit for cruising and enjoyable, not overly-competitive racing.
Only 94 more days to launch.....

[Ed Shankle]

I did a search in Practical Sailor and found a 2003 article on the topic of sail recommendations; opinions provided from a number of different sail loft pro's. As usual, the opinions were mixed, but there was a definite "leaning" to one side on 2 points.
1. luff rope instead of foam luff pad on the genoa
2. 135 - 140% genoa instead of a 150% if you are more of a cruiser than a racer
These opinions were based on a 35 ft boat sailed in the New England area (my stomping grounds)
The rationale for the smaller genoa was, if you race and have sufficient rail meat, the 150 is the choice.
Otherwise, the smaller sail will provide less heeling and better control, and therefore reduce the need to partially furl. A partially furled sail isn't as efficient.
So, after discussing with Doyle, who was recommending both of the above to me, I decided to go with the rope luff and a 140% genoa. We'll find out in May if that was the right decision!

Ed

[Hawk]

I'm with Ed and Jon. I went with a 135% North Sail without foam or rope luff (I had considered it). For most sailing up to 16-18 knots or so the 135 works very well and the leading edge is cleaner without foam/rope. A friend purchased a 150 and now wishes he had gone with a 135 or 140 as it gets overpowered too quickly.
I also have a 110 if I planned to be out in 20+.........

Hawk

[Albreen]

Ed and Hawk,
Great information (as usual on the forum) with these last posts - so, thank you both.  I think I will stay with the current 130 for a while based on this information and previous posts from a few years ago that said many C34 owners regretted getting a 150 and would have preferred something in the 130-140% range. If I do feel the need after a few races to move up, I think I'll go with a 140 following Ed's tack (pun intended). We usually cruise as a couple and race with a crew on the rail in JAM. With solely a headsail for downwind, I was concerned with the amount of power - but this boat sails much more like a bigger vessel than my older P32 and I may be misinterpreting the loss of speed downwind with a more stable ride. Maybe we can catch up once the ice breaks free here in the NE and we get to sail again. (Envy rears it's head when reading of actual on water conversation this time of year.)   

[Ron Hill]

Ed : As I understood the foam luff it was for better sail shape when the sail was roller reefed and not all the way out!!  All the way out shape was gaged to the sailmakers ability cut a good shape.

I have a 150% with a foam luff and still have great sail shape when I roller it in to 100%.
Can't tell you about the rope?, but I'll go with a foam luff, bi radial cut, made out of a laminate when I again buy a new Genoa!!   

[Hawk]

Ron,
That is true to a point but note the comment below from a Seattle sail maker:

        A luff pad can be installed when the sail is new or later after you have had a chance to use the sail. The maximum you can expect to reef a headsail down is about 25 - 30% of the actual area of the sail with a foam luff pad.

Of course with a 150% genoa you will have to roller reef much sooner and more often, which perhaps makes a rope or foam luff pad more useful, more so if its an older sail that is stretched out.

According to our local sail expert the quality new sails are cut much flatter and don't really need a luff pad to take up the centre when reefing. Also in our wet coast the luff pads promote mildew growth.

Hawk

[jkar]

Your local sailmaker will know best.  I have had UK now Doyle for the past three sail replacements going back to '00.  All "Tape Drive" to UK or now Doyle calls it "Stratis" but still the laminate "Tape Drive" style.  Couldn't have been happier, all 155% (no PHRF credit for 130-155, only under 130) and the extra horsepower is needed on light days.  When it is heavy, dump the traveller before furling, rarely does it get furled.  Did not get any "Sunbrella" or UV protection added, instead opted to have them build me a sock instead.  When raised, matches the boom cover and gives a "finished" look, plus the genoa can't come out in a storm if the fulrling line is accidentally released/not fastened.  Was the same price as UV protection, but keeps the weight off the sail, plus when I purchase again, will save money downstream as I already have the protection.  All sails built over the winter using the previous sail, never had an issue with fit.  Only issue I ever had was on the main, they installed the wrong size headboard slug, too wide for the track, after that was replaced life was good.  Joel