No power to the instument cluster

[Bobg]

One more question guys, (ya right).  I was 14 miles out in a anchorage with my 2 teenage daughters. went to start the boat and had nothing at the key.  Troubleshot the batteries, all good, took the cluster out, (what a job, the fuel shut off handle is in the way,) was able to kind of get it open, long story short, ran a negative ground wire to the cluster, didn't help, ran a positive wire from the positive side of my dedicated start battery, touched it to a terminal on the ignition switch and "eureka" everything powerd up, Blower, and buzzer, and glowplugs.  started the motor pulled anchor headed for home.  when we got there, I couldn't duplicate the problem, everything worked, however I will never trust it again. 

Question one:   do you think it is the switch>? if so, do I have to go through Catalina to get one? this switch also activates the glow plugs.

Question two:  I was able to turn the engine over jumping the solenoid, but the engine wouldn't start, I'm thinking the glowplugs had to be activated to start.  Can this be done someway without the ignition switch? 

Question three:  Do I need the electric fuel pump running to start the engine, or does my engine have a hi pressure mechanical fuel pump to keep the engine running in case the electric fuel pump doesn't activate>or fails

I realize some of these questions should be self evident, but the boat is 160 miles away and I didn't bring my books with me and won't be going up there for 2 weeks, I will do further research on this website when I get time, but I am leaving for St louis, from Mpls and won't get to it it for about 10 days.  Thankyou all very much for any information you could share.  I will be checking the website in a internet cafe and want to order what I need while gone.   Bob G

[Ray & Sandy Erps]

If I recall, the fuse holder near the starter powers the instrument cluster.  If I'm wrong, I'll be corrected shortly.  Here's a link to the first hit on a "fuse holder" search

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4247.0.html

[Jon Schneider]

Bob, that was pretty smart thinking about jumping the switch; I doubt I would've been that quick on my feet.  

#1: Maybe, but I think that by jumping it on the outside, that wouldn't have cured an internal switch problem (but, again, maybe).  Seems the more likely culprit is the power line to the switch, which is what you replicated by bypassing it.  I suspect that the problem could be either in the terminals (have the harness upgrade been done?  could be in the in-line connections) or a worn bit of the wire grounding out on the engine or somewhere on the panel.

#2: Again maybe.  Mine won't start without about five or six seconds of glow, but, depending on the engine and the ambient temperature, some can start with a dose of glow.  Have you ever tried to start without the glow plugs?

#3: No, the fuel is basically gravity-fed.

BTW, you may want to discuss this with Seaward Products, the manufacturer of both the panel and the harness.  Per other comments on this board, just don't expect them to return your phone call; try to get 'em live on the phone.  

[Jon Schneider]

If I recall, the fuse holder near the starter powers the instrument cluster. 

Ugh... Ray, I wish I had read your reply first (which was posted while I was writing mine).  That's a really good thought.  The only contradictory part of the story is that Bob's panel began working again on it's own.  It's rare that fuses fix themselves.  BTW, my fuse is in the engine compartment.

[sedelange]

When I reinstalled my engine and rewired my boat, I installed a small bracket with three switches and two circuit breakers in the starboard rear section of the engine compartment.  This allows me to start and run the engine from inside the boat.  It also makes a nice emergency control panel.

Steve DeLange

[Ken Juul]

1.My guess is a bad switch.  It is a universal 3 position switch; stop, run, spring return start.  Should be able to find at any auto parts store.  Since it was intermittant, after changing the switch give the old one a good cleaning then test it.  If it works, keep as a spare.

2. If the engine is hot, (100+) it should start without glow plug activation.  Cold engines usually require glow plug preheat.  The glow plugs can be jumped also, hot wire to any of the glow plugs will activate them all.  It's a big current draw, will need a large gauge wire, might want to hold with pliers or gloves.

3.  If the tank over 1/2 full it should gravity feed.  The electric pump is there to ensure a good head of fuel to the injector pump when it gets below the garvity feed level to prevent excessive wear of the injector pump.  (it also helps in bleeding the fuel system after filter change)

[Stu Jackson]

One of the most prevalent issues with engines not starting is the fuse holder for the ignition switch which is cleverly hidden up behind the alternator.  Before you go ripping things apart (again, too late for you now, Bob) check the fuse holder and the fuse.  They corrode from the insider out, get loose inside, disintegrate completely and any combination of same.  Rare is it that the pushbuttons or key switches go south.  I replaced ours in 2004 when the engine wouldn't turn over at all, and have put two more in since then.  I raised the last install up by adding wire and supports and next time will use a switch rather than a fuse - 15A as I recall.  Altogether too many people go for the hard solution first, and you're not the only one who's done so.  This is another one of those (hidden) issues that has been written about before, cleverly buried, just like the fuse holder, in the tons of information on our boats.  When it happened to me in 2004, I remembered having read it and went for the fuse holder first.

[Bobg]

Ray, I wasn't that quick on my feet, it was the last thing I tried after a hour of headscratching and troubleshooting.
Thank you all very much for your pormpt replies, Stu the fuse looked good when I troubleshot the system, thats when I started to get real worried. Will definetly get extra fuses
Steve. I like the idea of duplicating the starting circuit. will look into that a little more. 
I will probably put a new switch in for sure like Ken says and investigate the idea of jumping the glow plugs, at least to see how to do it and if it works.
I am thinking from these answers, if the tank is over half full, I should be able to get fuel,
Run a hot wire from the battery to the glow plugs, trigger the solenoid with a screwdriver, and the motor should start.  I do know one thing, After the permanent fix, for piece of mind,I better get going on a backup plan.

The Boat next to me has the same engine, (universal "kubota" MK25) it is in a Cal 30, in addition, he has a outboard motor kickup bracket, like on the trailerables. he is able to mount his dinghy motor on this in emergancies,  I think it is overkill, but gotta admit, I was thinking about it when I couldn't start my engine.
As you all know, it can get real freaky out there when you are with the kids, 14 miles out, wind on the nose, Sunday, work in the morning 160 miles away. and no one to call.  Thanks guys, Bob on ghostrider

[Craig Illman]

Bob - Another handy option is shown in this project link: http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-secondary-starter-switch.html

It's pretty easy to do and lets you start/crank the engine without having to go out to the panel.

Craig

[Stu Jackson]

Bob, just to clarify and/or repeat:  the FUSE may be just fine, it is the fuse HOLDER which tends to go south, even though it may "look" good, the contacts may not be working.  So, please don't simply think of replacing the fuse itself, get new fuseHOLDERS or a 15A breaker of some sort.

[pjcomeau]

Stu,

My engine wouldn't turn over this past weekend and it was a blown fuse. The alarms would go off and it looked like glow plugs were going, but when pushed the start button, the engine would not turn. I wasn't sure where to start, but when I saw the fuse holder I decided to check it out and was surprised to see a blown fuse. Got a new fuse and the engine started. Before I saw this thread, I was thinking of asking, "What could have caused the fuse to blow in the first place?". Should I still be looking at tracking down a bigger problem that caused the fuse to blow?

Again, this site is amazing, there is almost always someone else experiencing (or experienced) my problems and solutions usually available ASAP....

Thanks,

Pierre

[Stu Jackson]

Pierre

What size fuse blew and what size did you put back in?  Many times, as I've said, it's the fuseholder, not the fuse.  If there's arcing inside the holder, the fuse could blow.  I stepped up from 5 to 10 to 15 and the wiring is still holding after the first two smaller ones blew.

[Ron Hill]

Bob G : You need to give your Hull # and production year.  You can't believe how the wiring has changed over the 22 years! 
Then people don't have to guess at which wiring you have!!  A thought 

[Stu Jackson]

Bob, Ron's right.  I have placed this thread right at the top of the message board and it's been there for three weeks.  Give it a try:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,1506.0.html

It'll help us to help you.

[Ron Hill]

Bob G : Also use a better terminology.  To me an "instrument cluster" are the instruments (wind, speed, depth, radar, chartplotter etc.) that are on a pedestal guard in front of the wheel, not the engine instruments persay. 
My interpretation.