batteries

[captran]

Well, the broker called to say they don't think that the batteries are holding a charge on my recently purchased 97 model.  Since I'm 3000 miles away from the boat and want to start a summer cruise soon after my arrival, it appears they may have me "hung out to dry".  I've read the info on the search and FAQ pages about batteries including golf cart batteries, but am not sure what to do. Relace the 4D batteries,paying exhorbitant costs for the dealer to mark it up or Delay a departure and tend to it myself when I get down there . How long do batteries last on the Catalina 34?   It's also a valuable lesson.  I checked the batteries and one seemed suspiciously low and the broker said "if there was a problem it would have been noted on the survey", and we all know what verbal statements like that are worth!

PS  Thanks for input earlier on my other question on anchoring gear.  I read the FAQ's, even finding a response from the prior owner of our boat!

[rdavison]

My thoughts - How long the batteries last is mostly a function of discharge history and the quality of the charger used.  This, given that they have been kept topped with distilled water, not left discharged etc.  

I had a similar situation in '97 when I bought our '93.  My first action was to replace the stock ferro-resonant battery charger with a modern, three stage charger, the West Marine TrueCharge 20 made by Statpower.  Next, I replaced the stock batteries with two Trojan golf cart batteries and a group 27 battery.  Huge difference.  Batteries barely need water now and are always in perfect condition.

My experience (and that of many others) is that ferro-resonant chargers float the batteries at too high a voltage and boil water off pretty fast.  If care is not taken to keep the batteries topped off, they will go dry and be ruined.  Further, ferro-resonant chargers charge a discharged battery quickly at first but the charge rate tails off fast as the battery voltage comes up.

I think you are on the right track to replace the batteries, either yourself or through the dealer as dead batteries can certainly mess up a vacation and you don't know the history of the current ones.  If you are going to replace the 4Ds, I would do it at the start of your trip, as the wiring won't need to be changed, and you will be assured that they will be in good shape for your vacation.  You will also be able to watch the voltage on the batteries to make sure your current charger is working correctly.  Also recommend you upgrade your charger at some point if not already done.  Especially since you're not there to watch the battery water yourself.

I'm in the next upgrade stage this week, putting in a high output alternator, two more golf cart batts, a separate starting battery, and a 3 bank combiner.

My opinion - your milage may vary!

Randy

Randy Davison  #1268 1993 k7voe

[Stu Jackson]

Captran:

How long do batteries last on a C34?

How long does your gas tank on your car last?  Seriously, it's all in how you use it.  Randy's right, how you use it and how you charge it.  There's tons of information about batteries out there.  I have saved some very interesting information from the recently deceased Mailing List and would be pleased to send it to you.  Just send me an email at the address below.

The replacement of your charger, if it is an old ferroresonant, should happen right away, or else the new batteries you put in will be goners soon, too.

Randy:  How come a three bank combiner?  If you are planning to split your four Trojans, I suggest that you reconsider.  The larger the battery bank, given a "given" load, the longer the batteries will last.  Check Nigel Calder's book.  I'm on the road now and don't have the reference, but will be glad to forward it to you if you send me an email at  mraquaq@aol.com.

Best regards, Stu

[captran]

Thank you both for your input as well as any future reccommendations from others..  I would be glad to get anything you have.  I have the nigel book, read every practical sailor (tho I am missing the one in 96 on batteries).  I think I have every other one except that issue.  On my 87 newport 30 I had 4 group 27 batteries, but with no frig, really didn't need much.  With the Catalina 34, we plan to cruise 9 weeks a year straight through, preferring to anchor out mostly.  I was thinking of one 32 watt solar flex panel.  the prior owner says he had two.  I think the charger is the original stock on the 97.  If only I didnt live so far away from the boat I could take care of alot of things without having to ask so many questions. so yes, I'd appreciate all recommendations. For my purposes, would it take 4 golf batteries  or 8 to replace the two 4D batteries.The more ideas I have when I get down there translate to more time cruising. I am also trying to figure out the best companionway screen system.  I took some crude measurements when I bought to the boat.  I also have been trying to get the forward and main cabin hatch measurements.  I saw a pretty good system of an outside cover for the dark hatches to keep things coller below, those were on a Catalina 36 I looked at.  I know I have alot to learn and appreciate all the advice and input.  Thanks again.

Randy Thies
captran@omnicast.net

[Roc]

Randy,
If you look at 'PROJECTS' on the C34 Homepage, you will see the inserts that I made to keep the sun out (also privacy for the v-berth).  I have lots of extra material left, so I can make them for you.  Let me know if you're interested.

Roc

[rdavison]

I've gone back and forth on it several times.  I had the 3 bank combiner already.  My reason for split is that I'll be mixing two new and two 2 year old T125s.  Am a little concerned about series paralleling old and new batts.  Also small advantage in having reserve house bank.

After thinking about it yet again, I could series an old and new batt in each leg and then parallel together.  This would equalize the legs but could mean uneven charge within each leg.   This is all probably academic as the "old" T125s have been babied all along and are in great shape.

I do have a 1 circuit e-monitor that I was going to use to monitor the first house bank to 50% and then switch to the other.  I could certainly use it to monitor a 4 battery bank as well.

I'm doing the final wiring today so will have to decide on the way up to to boat!  The wiring difference is minor so may wire it all as one bank, and measure the charge/discharge performance over a couple of cycles to determine if the batteries are behaving.  Can always change it to two banks easily.

Thanks for raising the issue.

Randy

Randy Davison  #1268 1993 k7voe

[jmnpe]

After being away from the list for a while, it's good to be back.

Several questions have been raised in this sequence of postings, so I'll try to answer a few of them.

4D equivalence - each pair of golf cart batteries will be roughly equivalent to one 4D. A Trojan T105 will give 225 amp-hrs per pair at 12 v. Most flooded 4D batteries will struggle to provide that many amp-hrs, and most will not last nearly as long as well maintained T105s.

Mixing old and new batteries - NEVER mix old and new batteries in series connections. Always keep the old and new batteries segregated for series connections. Mixing the series pairs in parallel won't really hurt anything unless the old batteries should really be in the recycle pile. All that will happen is that the new batteries will be doing more of the work at any given output voltage.

Chargers - Ferro-resonant charges make excellent room heaters or anchors. Replacing them with a quality 3 step charger ( Statpower, Heart Inverter/Charger) with temperature compensation should be on everyone's short list of priority upgrades. Unfortunately, replacing an old "hummer" with a new 3 step charger won't undo the damage done to the batteries by the "hummer". Moral is to replace the charger before you invest in new batteries

[rdavison]

After thinking about it, I came to the correct conclusion and did not mix the old and new batts.
I used a Fluke i1010 Hall effect dc clamp to monitor all leg currents while charging and found the three year old Trojan T125s show only a fraction of an amp of current difference from the new and this could be wiring differences or in differential drops in the fusing.

I did have one unintended consequence of my electrical upgrade that others might learn from.  When I put all 4 Trojans in the battery compartment, I moved all the wiring - breakers, ground connection hub and e-meter shunt - to the edge of the compartment nearest the centerline - right where my ST4000 compass is mounted in the upper bilge.  This meant I could calibrate my charge current by my deflection in course! Moving the sensor is next weekend's project.

Randy

Randy Davison  #1268 1993 k7voe

[captran]

Hi Randy, ir sounds like the usual one project leads to another.  I have a question, which I know is basic.  When you wired your golf cart batteries, it's done in parallell to bring it up to 12 volts.  Can you describe that process.  I have less than 4 weeks till we arrive at the boat.  I am picking up a stat power 20 charger and also will replace the batteries.  But I am thinking I might go with the golf batteries and just have the yard where I store it charge them every few months.(we will only use the boat 2 months a year, then store on the hard.) originally I was thinking about AGM's, due to the low self discharge rate, but rhe cost and output of the golf batteries would perhaps be worth it to have the yard tend to them.  also, where did you get your golf batteries?  Thanks

[rdavison]

The golf cart batteries are 6 volts each so you wire two of them in series to get 12 volts.  Then you treat the combination just like any other 12 volt battery.  If you use them to replace your 4ds you will need to fill the indents in the floor of the compartment that was designed to hold group 27s.  I just cut two chunks of 2X8, slopped on a coat of varnish and screwed them to the bottom of the compartment.  Some folks use a thin piece plywood and there is a nice metal frame on the web page.  The 4 Trojans fit but it's tight!

You will also want to put in hold down straps.  The brackets that the straps go through can just be screwed to the bottom of the compartment on each side of the golf cart battery pairs.

Assuming that you don't want to spend too much of your time on this project, I would just use the current wiring and wire the golf cart pairs in just as the 4ds are now.

When you put in your statpower charger in place of the ferroresonanant, you will find you need to use a piece of 1X2 to support the lower half of the new charger.  You'll see why when you are holding the charger in your hand and looking at the hole where the ferroresonant came out.  Not a big deal but it's a real bear working in the back of that compartment.

To wire the new charger, I just used the existing AC wiring - don't cut it short when you take out the old one - and also simply conneced the existing #4 wires.  You'll find they are too fat to work easily.  I just cut off a few strands until they fit - no problem at the 20 amp level.

Unless you are really fast and efficient, the battery and charger project will kill two full days of running to West Marine and the hardware store for bits and pieces.  Remember that you will also need the high current short links to hook the batteries in series.  I used #2 premade ones from West Marine.

I bought my Trojan T125s at Pacific Power here in Everett Washington.  The Trojan website will help you find your local dealer.  There are Trojan T105s, T115s, and T125s.  The higher number have more amp hours but are taller.  If you use a plywood floor you may have to go with T105s to fit.  That's one reason I used the floor insert approach.

There are a number of good articles on this upgrade on the web site.

Good luck and I'd be happy to answer any other questions you have.

Randy

Randy Davison  #1268 1993 k7voe

[captran]

Randy, Thanks for the specifics, especially re: charger placement and batteries.  I did re read Caulders and the wiring looks straightforward  ie  neg to positive  to wire the golf cart batteries in series.  Mine is a 97 model. I'll e mail you directly to double check the battery box issue.  I am hoping to figure out what I need all at once, since the boat is over an hour freeway drive to west marine.  I'll get the main hardware, etc at west and likely if there are any little parts get them from the boat yard rather than too much back and forth.  We live in Spokane, pretty close to you.  The boat is currently at St Simons Georgia.  we arrive there June 19, hope to head south by  Saturday, so it looks like I will have my work cut out for me.  I'll check out the trojan site this weekend.  Thanks again.

[tassber2]

I used 4 trojen T 125 golf cart batteries in my 1996 MII.  The only problem I had was that the batteries did not fit in the existing tray that housed the 4D's.  They were 1/4 inch too short.  I removed the original trays that were held in with a few stainless wood screws.  I then bought 4 group 24 battery boxes and cut approxamatly the top half off so what remained was a plastic tray about 4 inched high.  I then screwed through the bottoms into the wood the same way as the original boxes were mounted.  Use fender washers under the screws.  You will have to improve the top mount to make it more solid.  I  use this as my house bank and installed a starting battery under the stbd setee.  You can then use the existing switch and do not need any combiners, etc.  This system is now three years old and shown no signs of wear.