Lighting upgrade - LEDs

[John Langford]

I just upgraded almost all the lights on board my MkII using LED lights made by Doctor LED (see www.doctorled.com) and distributed in Canada by Steveston Marine in Vancouver. All of the Frilight fixtures in the headliner take the MR-16 LED. I also replaced the dome light over the sink with the Doctor LED dome light and a couple of brass gooseneck lamps took the G-4 replacement bulb. With all 8 lights on I am drawing .8amps in toto as opposed to ten times that amount with the halogen and Xenon combination I had before. The light is bright, white and easy on the eyes. The LEDs are set up to run on 11-15 amps so you can run them while the battery charger is churning out 14.4 volts apparently without damaging them. The life span is 10,000 hours so let me know if you would like to be mentioned in my will.

This is a great upgrade for power stingy cruisers. DoctorLED has a replacement bulb for Aqua-signal anchor lights. It is on my project list but in the meantime my Davis cockpit light will have to do.

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks to the Tech Ediotr of the C36 Association for this information, thanks Cooch.


  Posted Sat December 15 2007 10:57 AM  Hide Post
Make sure any replacement LEDs are USCG approved or you may have some 'splainin to do if you have a crunch in the night with unapproved lighting.

Dr.LED has developed a line of replacement navigation light bulbs for Aqua Signal 25 and 40 series.

These are direct replacements that will save a lot of amps (Tara's equipped with the AS 40's that really suck up the juice). There are even replacement LED for the foredeck floodlight bulbs!

Here's the descriptions:

Aqua Signal 40 ~ 0.1A
http://www.doctorled.com/p21.htm

Aqua Signal 25 ~ 0.09A
http://www.doctorled.com/p22.htm

Check out the other replacement LEDs, too:
http://www.doctorled.com/p2.htm


And here's a link that sells the bulbs. I haven't fully searched for the best deal; the prices may drop as the sales volume increases, time will tell:
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detail.htm?fno=400&group=851

Fair winds,
Glenn "Chooch" Jewell
Tara 389 

[Ron Hill]

Guys : You may want to check out the prices at superbrightleds.com.  They seem to be less costly for the common base LED bulbs.
A thought.        

[Lance Jones]

As you can tell, I'm working back through the forum notes. Sorry.
One thing to note about Dr. LED.... I use his stuff. However, his festoone (SP) lights for nav are NOT USCG approved. I talked to him at the Annapolis show and asked him if they were. His response was that the LIGHT FIXTURE has to be approved (Which is true) however, if you put in an after market bulb, that is ok. (Which is incorrect) The bulb has to meet the same requirements for that particular fixture.

[mainesail]

I had posted this on another forum but seeing as you guys are talking about LED's it might be a good reference so I am posting it here too. BTW I completed this testing and comparing before the recent Practical Sailor article on LED's. They concur with my findings on the Sensibulb..


Hi All,

I went ahead a acquired five different high output interior 12v LED bulbs for comparison.

I wanted to capture the actual beam width and the light color as best I could. I brought the bulbs home and set them up in my garage to shine on the back of the white garage door. I placed the test fixture 25" from the door and use a Deep Cycle battery at a 13.2V float stage charge to power them.

In order to capture every bulb with everything being equal I used a Nikon D-200 DSLR on a tripod with no flash and the garage was pitch black except for the one bulb being photographed. I even re-shot each and every bulb as new ones came in the mail so they were always shot within minutes of each other and at the same level of darkness in the garage. In between shoots I also moved the fixture and camera so I wanted every bulb to be in the exact same position to be fair. The camera was set to manual mode and every picture was taken remotely and on the same exact setting, so all could be as equal as possible. The camera settings were: 1s f/10.0 at 24.0mm iso200

Please note that a camera sees color temperatures differently than the naked eye and tendes to skew everything to a warmer glow. The yellow/oragie tints are actually nice and warm and the whitest bulb, the Dr. LED, is almost blue in the real world.

None of the photos, where light was captured, was post processed or run through any photo editing software. This is how they came out of the camera.

I chose these settings because it gave a clearer delineation of where the effective light spread stopped and petered into darkness.     

Current Draw is as follows:

20W Halogen = 1.745 amps
10W Halogen  =.87 amps
Sensibulb       = .194 amps
MarineBeam   6 bulb = .158 amps
MarineBeam 10 bulb = .188 amps
Dr. LED          = .138 amps
Superbrite LED = .141 amps

To put it in perspective one 10W Halogen bulb uses 4.48 times (448% more) electricity than does one Sensibulb and one 20W halogen uses 8.9 times (899% more) electricity than the Sensibulb which was the highest drawing of the LED's tested.

This is the Dr. LED G4 / MR-11 it had the narrowest beam width and the coldest bluish color. It was also the least bright with the lowest current draw at .138 amps. At $28.99 I think the MarineBeam bulb is a significantly better value and if you compare price, with beam width and light output, it can't even touch the Sensibulb:


This is the SuperBrite LED's MR-11 WHP6. It's a six SMD bulb and a decent knock off to the Marinebeam MR-11-6 below. To the naked eye looks virtually identical but the lighting & current draw tell a different story. It has a cold blueish tint and is slightly less bright than the MarineBeam MR-11-6. At $14.95 it is a decent value but certainly not the best color representation. Another clue that it is not the same exact bulb as the Marinebeam is the current draw. This bulb drew .141 amps and the Marinebeam drew .158 amps.

This is the MarineBeam G4 / MR-11-6 it uses 6 SMD LED's and had a much wider beam width than the Dr. LED and about the same as the Superbrite LED bulb but was noticeably warmer in color output. Though the Sensibulb was considerably warmer and more natural looking this was the second most natural looking and fairly close to an incandescent bulbs color. It was brighter and warmer than the Dr. LED bulb and the Superbrite LED and at $24.99 it is a lot cheaper than the Sensibulb. It's a good choice for a price conscious user & it consumes .158 amps :


This is the MarineBeam G4/MR-11-10. Like the G4/MR-11-6 it uses SMD LED's but instead of six it uses ten. It was brighter but notably colder than it's smaller sibling bulb. At $27.99 it is a lot cheaper than the Sensibulb and a good choice for a price conscious user who needs more light output than the G4/MR-11-6 type bulbs can give.. I was not impressed with the color rendering of this bulb and it is tending towards colder rather than warmer especially when compared to the other MarineBeam bulb. It consumes .188 amps :


This is the Sensibulb and it fits both horizontal and vertical fixtures it had the widest beam width, even hitting & wrapping up onto the ceiling. It also had the warmest most incandescent like light output and was definitely the brightest of the tree bulbs but also the most expensive at $39.95 ea. It was significantly brighter than the Dr. LED bulb but also drew the most current of the three LED's at .194 amps (note the reflection off the ceiling and keep in mind this bulb was only 24" from the door):


I have also included this G4 10W Halogen bulb photo for comparison. It draws .88 amps or 448% more than the Sensibulb:


Here's a G4 20W Halogen bulb it draws 1.745 amps per hour or 899% more than the Sensibulb. In terms of light output the Sensibulb falls in between the 20 watt and the 10 watt halogens..


These are the bulbs tested:

From L to R: Sensibulb, Marinebeam G4/MR-11-10, Marinebeam G4/MR-11-6, SuperBrite LED MR-11 WHP6, Doctor LED Mr-11

Front Row: 10 Watt G4 Halogen, 20 Watt G4 Halogen

Test Fixture:



P.S. If you mention to the folks at Sailors Solutions that you read about the Sensibulb here, Nick, one of the owners, has agreed to give 10% off..

[Roger Blake]

Nice review...I've been wondering how the various LEDs matched up.

[Kyle Ewing]

To add to this thread, I'm researching the best way to replace my existing nav lights with LED.  I like the idea of bulb replacement but worry about liability if they aren't USCG certified.  I haven't found any certified led replacements for the Aqua Signal 25 series bow and stern lights.

Defender has the Series 32 bicolor for an incredible $49.99 (list $309) but it's deck mount.  The series 32 stern light is $88.  I like that option but worry about installation.  My options seem to be:
* Get Series 32 lights for less than $150 and spend time and energy to fabricate new mounts. 
* Get the Series 43, which seems to be a direct replacement to what I have and spend less time mounting but spend $400+ on   the fixtures ($200+ each).  I might be bettery off buying new batteries.
* Replace the bulbs for less than $100 but worry about liability if I get run over at night.

Has anyone fitted a Series 32 bow light?  Are there other fixtures besides Aqua Marine I should look at?  Am I worrying too much about certification?

Kyle Ewing
Donnybrook #1010
Chicago

[Stu Jackson]

A CONTRARIAN QUESTION

I've seen this discussion about navigation light bulbs and fixtures all over the internet.

Please help me understand the "liability" issue that keeps getting raised.

Does anybody really believe that if you have an after dark incident AND YOUR LIGHTS ARE WORKING that someone is going to ask you to take your light fixtures apart to see if they have "approved" lamps inside?

I'd really like some help in this.  I have never heard of anyone asking about this before the invention of LEDs, nor of anyone having this "take-it-apart" request ever made since the introduction of LEDs.

Please note, again, the title of this post.      Please, NO gratuitous lawyer bashing...

[Lance Jones]

Eventhough I'm one of those who commented about the USCG approval, it hasn't stopped me from using them. In most cases, my (Unapproved) LEDs are far brighter than the USCG approved incandescent lights. I noticed the dif. in the batteries immediately.  I'm all for the LED replacement when and where ever possible.

[Kyle Ewing]

I base my concern in part on comments here (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/led-light-turned-nav-light-blue-21952-2.html) and this Boat US article (http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/justice.asp). 

A friend of mine had a dinner cruise boat misjudge wind drift and hit him while anchored.  He did nothing wrong--the Coast Guard witnessed the incident--but as soon as the lawyers got involved it got messy quick.

My concern is getting run over by someone with more money for a lawyer than sense then looking for any reason to shift blame to me.  In the scheme of things collisions are rare.  I'm trying to understand all the issues before making a decision that may impact safety, especially since I enjoy night sailing and in Chicago nav lights quickly get lost with the shore lights.

Back to my original question, does anyone have experience with an economical replacement LED based fixture for our Aqua Signal 25 fixtures?

[Lance Jones]

Check out Mastlight.com

[Stu Jackson]

Back to my original question, does anyone have experience with an economical replacement LED based fixture for our Aqua Signal 25 fixtures?

Kyle, thanks for the reasoning, that's what I was looking for.

The 2008 WM catalog, page 460, has AS Series 25 lights, showing a Model 175203 lamp.  Page 471 shows the standard lamp replacement table with that lamp being a DIM-FEST (dimpled festoon) at $5.79.  Page 470 has Dr. LED Ploar Star LED Replacement bulbs for AS Series 25 for $49.99.  On the lower left corner of Page 470 are Ancor festoon lamps, too, $15.99, with dimensions and CP (candlepower) but no direct replacement info.

I don't have the 2009 catalog at hand right now, be recall more LED lights than ever in the new catalog.

No mention of CG issues, but you're most likely familiar with the Dr LED website.

What seems also important: has anyone heard of any movement by the CG to start "approving" these new lamps?  Remember the old inflatable PFD discussions on "CG approvals"?  It sure took 'em long enough on that one.

[Jack Hutteball]

The wheels of government grind slowly, almost imperceptibly... unless it is giving your money to a company with the worst possible business practices so they can pay "performance bonuses" 

[Jim Hardesty]

The LED question was discussed by one of the local (very good) dealers.  He said the festoon bulb replacements, due to an array of LEDs verses a single vertical filament, would not give the correct arc of visibility.  From the bow on you would see the red and green together, same with the stern and steaming light.  Any light requiring to be visible from prescribed angle.
He said that it was a small thing, but just the stuff that our courts go for.  But his company would not change LED replacement bulbs for nav lights that required an arc of visibility,all around lights were OK.

[Jon Schneider]

The LED question was discussed by one of the local (very good) dealers.  He said the festoon bulb replacements, due to an array of LEDs verses a single vertical filament, would not give the correct arc of visibility. 

Interesting... I would think just the opposite.  The problem with LEDs is that they don't disperse light; they direct light in one path.  That has been the problem with getting USCG approval; there are gaps due to the linear path of the beam.