Cabin top design

[Craig Illman]

I'm exploring alternatives for bringing more of my control lines back to the cockpit. We just added two Garhauer triple clutches on port and starboard to replace the original single halyard clutches and clam cleat. We found that Catalina had embedded a plate in the complete pad on each side to allow the holes to be tapped for bolts, instead of having to use screws.  I'm curious about the pad area that sits behind the traveller supports. (see attached drawing extract from the owners manual) I there something similar cast in this pad area? Is it solid resin? I'm contemplating mounting Spinlock PX Powercleats in this area for controls, such as the outhaul, that don't need the mechanical advantage of a winch, but would be used more, if they were more readily accessible.  I'm also going to need to mount bullseyes on the coachroof somewhat forward, what's the approximate thickness? Have people needed to through-bolt or have they just over-drilled, dug out some core, filled with resin and drilled for screws? All this is a little more complicated by having the requisite dodger.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Craig Illman

[George Bean]

I've talked to Catalina and, at least on the MkII boats, the aluminum backing plate does not extend much beyond the existing clutches and winch.  I too, want to put some spinlocks in that area for things like topping lifts, Cunningham, and outhaul.  They suggested that I drill oversized holes and fill them with epoxy.  And once cured, drill and tap(?) them for the spinlocks.  They said that most of the force is in shear and that I would be able to get by without through bolting them.  Has anybody else heard about this?  Does this really sound practical?  What say you, Stu and Ron?

[Stu Jackson]

There have been some recent discussions that cover some of the questions raised on this issue:  see : http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2417.0  which has yet another link.  Even have pictures!

George, I'm betting that all the boats are somewhat different.  Manufacturing details and production line "efficiencies" changed rapidly.  I recall significant differences between Al Watson's #55 [when I saw him and "Kindred Spirit") back in Connecticut seven years ago] and Aquavite #224.  Heck, Stan O'Hoppe's #242 and Aquavite are different.

I recommend that owners investigate their own boats, and, yup, it may require drilling a hole (at least one).

Craig, you do have choices (drats, did I say THAT again?). 

1)  Epoxy Method -- Drill an over sized hole, L drill between the layers of glass and epoxy the hole, fill and drill again.  Tapping epoxy doesn't sound quite right to me.  Sealant liberally applied anyway. 

2)  Sealant Method -- Drill the proper size hole, use sealant liberally, and fender and finish washers below with acorn nuts if the location requires.

[rirvine]

Catalina is correct - most of the loading from clutches jam and cam cleats is sheer – assuming the lines are run correctly.  Still the shock loads can be very high when bad stuff happens.  Crew's Nest has every control line run aft to the cockpit terminated with cam cleats – five of them in total.  In all cases the cam cleats are mounted with through bolts with large washers on the inside.  Unless when drilling the pilot hole I found wood backing to the fiberglass. In that case they are mounted with 2"  SS wood screws. 

Also we have found that rope clutches are not the best for lines that have to be adjusted frequently or eased in a hurry - one has to get to the clutch to ease.

[George Bean]

Stu, Ray, thanks for the pointers.  What I want to do is run an extra two lines on either side of the coach roof.  On Stb, I want to run the topping lift in one and my new combination foreguy/Asymmetric tack line on the other.  On Port, I want to run the spinnaker topping lift and either the outhaul or vang on the other.  So my concern is the loads from the vang and tack lines pulling (shear) on the clutches.  Because of this, I was thinking about using spinlocks, as cam cleats can become problematic when trying to release under load.  What do you think?  Will cleats (either cam or spinlock) be up to the job for these loads?  And, will I be able to get by with them merely screwed into the coach roof and not through bolted?  My concerns with through bolting is the bolts and acorn nuts will protrude into both the galley and head areas and I already have scars on my head from our old boat...

[rirvine]

Crew's Nest has three rope clutches on each side: –
On the port side– Topping lift, Spinnaker halyard, Jib halyard
On the starboard side – Foreguy / tack (2:1), Main halyard, Reefing line.
All the above need to have access to a winch from time to time

In cam cleats:
On the port side – Cunningham (6:1), Traveler
On the starboard side - Traveler, Main outhaul (10:1), Vang (standard issue).
None of these needs to have access to a winch

None of the through bolts are any place where they will get your head

Operating rule is - if it is not easy to adjust nobody will bother

[Stu Jackson]

George,

I agree with Ray that holes all the way through may be the way to go.  With properly sized bolts and acorn nuts on the inside, your noggin may still survive!

1.  Starboard:   topping lift in one and new combination foreguy/Asymmetric tack line on the other. 

The topping lift should have little heavy action and would not exert a large "snap" load.   I would think that screws in shear would suffice.  A cam cleat would work for this purpose, and would bless expensive than a clutch, although as a line that rarely is adjusted during a sail, a clutch would work, as Ray notes.

The foreguy would most likely have large and possibly immediate hard loads and should be through-bolted.  The decision on cam cleat or clutch is determined on how you use this line (you know I don't have one!!!).  If it's like a traveler car line, a cam cleat would be fine, and would offer easy adjustment, but Ray indicates that he uses a clutch (you guys tell me  !!!)

2.  Port: spinnaker topping lift and either the outhaul or vang on the other.

The spinnaker topping lift would most likely have large and possibly immediate hard loads and should be through-bolted.  Like the foreguy, it depends on how it's used.

The outhaul or vang are candidates for cam cleats and our vang line is led through an adjustable (rotating) raised Harken cam cleat in the far forward area under the dodger.  In Craig's first post above, like in the picture's lower right side, only ours are on port.  Our lazy jacks are on starboard, same location (through the "bullseye)..  That's through bolted, but I would think it would not be necessary if you just use a straight cam cleat.

The clutches (i.e., sheet stoppers, Spinlocks) I use for lines that rarely need to be tended during use, like halyards and reefing lines.  All the rest are cam cleats (traveler lines, cunningham, lazy jacks, and the vang).  Without all your "go fast" technology, I have less of an input than Ray's on those.

Happy drilling.

[Craig Illman]

I was considering Spinlock PXs, not clutches. I was considering them for outhaul, vang, topping lift, maybe the lazy jacks sometime in the future. Late fall project, too nice of weather (finally!!) for much boat work. Well, I did change the oil this morning.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions!!

- Craig

[Stu Jackson]

Craig,

I may not have been clear enough.  To me clutches are any hardware that grabs the line and requires some kind of lever to release, as compared to cam cleats.  So, this means Garhauer, Spinlock, Lewmar or other manufacturers of equipment that holds the line through a hole in middle and a lever to release.

Definitions of the differences of "cleats" can be found on this thread, perhaps earlier referenced:    http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2417.0

[Craig Illman]

Stu -

Spinlock PXs are more like a cam cleat than a clutch, no lever. They release by lifting the line up, but is a little more captive than a cam cleat. In fact, they're touted as a replacement for cam cleats, they have the same mounting hole spacing.

Still a lot of planning to do on that project. Short term focus is vacation in ten days! I'm ready to finally enjoy all my winter's upgrades along with a new main that's due by the end of the week.

Craig