another mailsail reefing question - C380 reefing link

[Jeff Kaplan]

when i bought #219, two seasons ago, no reefing lines were i place. last year was first full season and really didn't need to reef main except, we should have once. am going to set up a single line system, as posted on c380 web sight, with 2 blocks attached on main sail reef. grommets, , 2 cheek blocks on boom and fairlead on mast, down to block on mast collar to deck org. and to an empty  clutch on coach roof. looks simple to set up and post stated excellent performance. keeping everything on port side. will switch topping lift suspenders to starboard tie off. question, what size line is suggested, 5/16 or 3/8? wm is running a sale, so time to stock up. our season up here in n.e. is coming. i think 60' will work. once set up, i will take pic's and post. thanks...jeff

[dave davis]

There are several points that I would like to make. What ever line you use, spend a little more and get low stretch or you will be forever making adjustments to tighten.
The smaller size line will allow you to use smaller blocks.
Now comes the real problem, any time you run a lenth of line parallel to another line and have  swivel blocks, you are setting up conditions for twist in the lines. There is nothing worst than trying to tighten or loosen a line which is twisted. This is the real problem of running both lines on the same side of the sail. This is the same problem that you run into on mainsheets that use swivel blocks on older boats that have lines runing up and down to the boom.
Good Luck, Dave

[Jeff Kaplan]

upon further investigation into the single line reefing setup, i am taking Dave's advice, my riggers, and stu's, and am not going to use that set up. opinion is that it just won't work. going to original catalina set up  but am going to follow stu's set up written in mainsheet nov. 2003,to bring lines back to cockpit,  except,  am going to use blocks on the main reef. cringles for down haul. my new main has two sets of reef points with block tabs sewn in, but i am only setting up one for now. stu, if you read this, i have several questions i would appreciate your input on . i am  going to put the tack block on the port side, attach line to eye on mast, up to block, then down and use the starboard side long tract to bring clew block down and forward. you have a double block at the goose neck. currently my set up has one block there that is used for the main sheet. you stated in another post that you don't use this one for the main, but instead bring your main sheet down  in line with the vang, to a block and back to cockput without going to a deck org. how  does that set up work for you? if i can eliminate the mainsheet  from that block, i can free it up for the reef line. i can run both lines  down to a double block on mast collar, port, then to deck org, back to double rope clutch. what size line did you use and also can you remember the lengths of each line? you can post this or e-mail me. finally getting to feel like spring up here. will appreciate all input thanks...jeff kaplan

[Stu Jackson]

Jeff

Glad it's getting to be springtime.

Running the mainsheet directly down just simply reduces the friction.  I think I got the idea from Ron Hill.  It has been working just fine for us.  I purchased new Garhauer blocks for all the mainsheet blocks.  I think I mentioned that I should have told Bill and Guido that the mast base block should have the fitting to fit in the mast step pins, but I found a D shackle that worked for the regular lock end fitting.  Bear with me, it's been awhile, but it shows in the picture.

I think the reefing lines are 3/8 inch, although they were there when I bought the boat.  Surprisingly, great strength may not be needed for the reefing lines, rather figure out whether or not you can "hand' them.  Sometime smaller is better, sometimes you need the thicker line to get a good grip (yeah, ME talking about getting a good grip, right... )  For instance, I used 3/8 line on my new traveler cars to start out, because I thought they'd "hand" better as thicker lines,  but found they expanded with age and bound up on the sheaves, so I switched to a smaller 5/16 line.  While not easier "hand", they run freely through the blocks and work just fine.  You could go to 5/16, I would think, for your reefing lines.  Also check the "manuals" tab at www.c34.org.  The manual should have the Catalina reefing line sizes on one of the pages in the manual.  Just be sure to check on the line sizes that your sheet stoppers will handle - they usually have a range of lines sizes with which they will work.

As far as the length of the reefing lines, that's really up to you, and, as I said, they were there when I bought Aquavite.  As always, measure twice, cut once, and I recommend buying at least an extra two feet of line, you can always cut 'em down later, but they're sure hard to make any longer.

Sorry for the delay in answering - just got a new computer and am still loading (and trying to find) stuff.

[Jeff Kaplan]

stu, thanks for the info. i figured the direct route for the mainsheet caused the least friction. i used that setup on my c27, but didn't change original setup on #219. will change it this spring and give it a try. frees up block and 1 sheave in deck org. still have rope vang, other things to spend money on. forgot to mention that i ordered all new blocks from gaurhauer to replace just about everything on boom and deck, also new double rope clutch.  mast collar blocks still look good, ball bearing style. gar. is sending me the new us series. btw, manual call for 5/16 reefing lines, last year i replaces traveler line to 3/8, much better to pull. new rudder, bimini, reefing system, blocks and lines, can't wait to put her back in, probably 5 weeks from now. such a short season up here. thanks again...jeff

[Stu Jackson]

last year i replaces traveler line to 3/8, much better to pull

Just please remember what I said above:  "For instance, I used 3/8 line on my new traveler cars to start out, because I thought they'd "hand" better as thicker lines,  but found they expanded with age and bound up on the sheaves, so I switched to a smaller 5/16 line.  While not easier "hand", they run freely through the blocks and work just fine." 

[Jeff Kaplan]

stu, i am going to stick with 5/16" low stretch for reefing lines. i figured 55' for clew run and 40' for tack. going to get on tomorrow for a more accurate guess. your right when you say line can be shortened but not the reverse. thanks for the input...jeff

[reedbr]

I found this thread interesting.  My dad purchased the C380 that has the reefing line modification that I think is on the 380 web site.  I liked it so much that I just did the change to my boat for $60 in parts.  I have only tried using it in the slip to make sure everything is run right.  I only have one reef point at this time.  Previously I had tried terminating the single line reefing at the clew and also at the boom.  Both seemed to have a lot of friction.  I reused my existing reefing line (since I'm cheap) so I have no idea about length.  I'll give it a try this season and see if it works better or worse than the original setup.  The rest of my reefing system is stock for the boat ('97).  I did have t rerun the line through the boom to use the same side boom end sheave.

[Jeff Kaplan]

brian, i got my info for that setup on the c380 sight. the rigger that origionally gave the info at the indy. boat show is the same one, n.e.rigging, that i use up here in boston. i called him a few weeks ago to go over the set up with him, but at the time, he discouraged me from going with that set up as the tension at the clew would not be strong enough. he told me to use blocks for less friction and easier pull and to stick with original two line set up, but lead lines back to cockpit, which i am going to do. i think winter is finally over and hope to uncover the boat this weekend. thanks for the update...jeff

[Stu Jackson]

Jeff and Brian

The concern about too little tension on the clew with single line reefing was one of the reasons we like our double line reefing system and was discussed both here on the board as well as in my Tech Notes article about Double Line Reefing, which the index shows as being in the Nov. 2004 issue (The Tech Notes Online version is missing that article - we're working on that).

search link -- C380 reefing link

[reedbr]

I assume we're both talking about this one:

http://www.catalina380.org/article_display.asp?ID=114

which Tom sold last year.  The name is still, Pleiades, but now down in the southern Chesapeake.

I've never had a great shape from a reefed main.  At that point I'm usually not too concerned about efficiency.  However, I fully admit I'm a cruising sailor.  To some extent, the vang can control your clew tension.

My boat had single line reefing stock.  I think converting to double line would make the cabin top organizers maddening.  I did like the rams horn hook for the tack that my C27 had though.  Like I said, I'll give this system a try for a year and see how it goes.

[reedbr]

I came across this post and through I would do an update.  I have MkII with single line reefing and did the modification to add small blocks on the tack and clew (using a stainless steel ring) to reduce friction.  The last time I posted, I had not yet used it.  Since then I have had 3 or 4 days of 15-20 knots.  My feeling about the modification:

(1)  Friction was MUCH less, therefore getting it tight was much easier.
(2)  Shape was much better than I have ever had it before.
(3)  I did not have to go on deck.  I did the reef from the cockpit, while still sailing (by letting the mainsheet way out).
(4)  Additional tuning with the vang and the mainsheet gave additional shape control
(5)  In heavy wind, the boat sails much better by depowering the main early.  Same goes for dropping the traveler downwind to keep the rudder from dragging sideways through the water.  I actually went faster by depowering the main.

My biggest issues were juggling the 3 lines between two cabin top winches (halyard, reefing line, and mainsheet), and being able to see what I was doing from under the dodger.  This is a MkII, so I am comparing single line no-blocks to single line with blocks. 

One last note, by traveler end blocks (vertical stack of three) were binding last year, so I took them home over the winter and ground down the hub so it ran free.  The result was amazing as far as easing traveler adjustment.  I also removed the camcleat at the traveler and replaced it with a fairlead.  This saved me cutting a vertical slit in the window of my new dodger, which never worked great anyway.  The traveler line now terminates in a clamcleat near the existing cabin-top clutches. 

I've might have pictures on the camera of some of this.  I can upload if anybody is interested.

[Roc]

Brian, please do give us pictures of the reefing set up and the cam cleats for the traveler line!!

[Stu Jackson]

Roc, cam cleats for traveler lineL http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2417.msg13624#msg13624

[Roc]

Thanks Stu, but I was aware of the link you sent. I'm interested in seeing Brian's set up on a MkII with the fairlead he installed and the cam cleat near the rope clutches.