Question about boat value

[Ken Krawford]

I have a 1988 C34 for sale.  The boat is significantly above average in condition with an average equipment list.  I don't believe that the boat has any major weaknesses compared to other '88 models.  BUC lists a value of $35,500 and NADA $41.500.  In searching Boats.com, the average listing price of 1988 C34's (11 boats) was $53,890.  I realize that few people receive their asking price but also double that there is that much of a spread between "book" value and asking price.  
How does a buyer justify book value as a valid offer and how does a seller justify values roughly 40% above book value?

[Stu Jackson]

Book value is BS and maybe only for other boats that don't hold their value as well as ours do.

I regularly peruse the local and national lists of for sale C34s, NOT the BUC.  If you do so, you'll see that the range of asking prices for 1986 boats goes from $49K to well over $58K.

It depends on where they are (further south usually has less "stuff" (i.e., heaters)), and how well they are kept.

During our search for "Aquavite," we found some real dogs, with high selling prices.

Takes all kinds to make a deal.

To also give you some "good vibes," go back to FAQs and reread "why we bought our C34s" and "what to look for when buying a C34."  

I know you read them, but read them again as a seller.  Then rethink the value of your boat and how you'd sell it to a prospective purchaser.  Some even say that this website, in some small way, increases the value of our boats.

Good luck,

[Mike Smith]

krawfo -

You could always talk to a marine surveyor and see what he thinks - or actually have a survey done to vaildate your asking price.  Surveys are usually good for six months or so.  If you sell the boat, a survey will have to be done anyway if the purchase is going to be financed.  The prospective buyer could then buy your survey.

Mike

[Paul Bosquet]

Boat value is can a very tricky delicate number to come up with. We all like to think that our boats are worth a lot considering the money we spend on them and have a hard time accepting the high depreciation that seems to hit them. Several tools must be used to come up with a fair value such as BUC, NADA, Yachtworld and local markets.
Of  course year is one but also general condition, equipment and upgrade, fresh or salt water and geographic location.
Value might be somewhat different in the eyes of the seller, but the bottom line is what the market will bear. A boat might be worth 55K, expenses to see the boat and the shipping cost might be 4K, so someone might be willing to pay 59K locally although the boat is only really worth 55K.
Here in Quebec,Canada, we have a problem. a lot of boat owner who ave boats sail on lake Champlain which is in the US Their boats are Canadian documented but in bond, (15% sales tax is not paid neither is duty in some case if applicable).  Some, who sail inland or on Canadian waters,and have paid taxes when selling their boats, consider the sale tax, if paid, in the value of their boats. Taxes do not affect the value of a boat, paid or not.
Another problem , north of the border is the appreciation of our currency. Not long ago,2, 3 years, a 1.00 US was worth as much as 1.55 Can. If someone bought a 59K us boat in the US, it cost him 91.k can plus 15% sales tax. Considering the same transaction today at the current rate, 1.20, the cost is about 71K
A seller will have a hard time accepting this devaluation on top of any depreciation. He has , technically, lost 20K just because of currency fluctuation.
When I bought Eliosso, asking price in the US was 50Kus for an 89, but here in Quebec , one guy was asking 90Kcan (64kus) and our Canadian book value guide had valued the boat at 90kcan. So here north of the border, we have to take the exchange rate into consideration.
Not as easy as it might appear.

Paul Bousquet
C34 Eliosso
Yacht Spec, Marine Inspector
SAMS, ABYC

[Mike Vaccaro]

Without meaning to be flippant, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay.  Unfortunately, it's easy to invest more in a boat than it's realistically worth.  There are all kinds of rules of thumb, and although sailboats tend to "bottom out" in price after 8 years of depreciation, production boats like ours may or may not decrease in value over time.  If you ask what a boat is REALLY worth, it's worth what a bank will under-write for a mortgage or an insurance company will cover in hull value.  If you paid a fair price for your Catalina and then subsequently invested 25K in improvements, you've fixed up a fine boat--but the market may not be ready to accept a premium if you intend to re-coup all of your investment.  

One of your best bets is to sell the boat in the local market.  If it's been well maintained or improved, folks in the area that know the boat will also appreciate the value you've added and may be willing to pay more.  One way to establish the value is to underwrite the cost of a fresh survey, as Mike suggested above.  If you ask a premium, your buyer may have to have a significant amount of cash available to cover the purchase price if it differs substantially from the assessed value of the boat.  Additionally, the buyer may find that he has to "self-insure" a portion of the hull value.

Another source of information is a broker.  It's not appealing to have to pay a commission (generally 10%), but if the boat is properly marketed, you may find that the math will work out.  A good broker should do a market appraisal of the boat and may even be willing to do so if you don't list, provided you agree to use their services in the future.

Another rule of thumb that is borne out by history is that boats tend to sell for about 90% of the asking price, so you may factor that in as well.

It's generally difficult to be truly objective about your own boat if you care about her and have invested time and money in her upkeep--this is where the surveyor or broker can help.  Again, the local market can be your best bet if folks know the boat is well found.

Our experience?  Well, probably not what you want to hear, but we've restored two older Catalinas, a 1984 Cat 25 that we invested about 15K in and sold for 12.5, and our current Cat 34 (a 1988 model) that we've got about 20K (and counting!) invested over the original purchase price (47K in 2002).  Realistically, if we had to sell her tomorrow, the market might bear 50K (a net loss of about 17K).  The reason that we've taken this approach is that total 67K invested in this project might have purchased a newer boat, but the systems would still be a decade (or more) old.  A boat is really just a sum total of her systems, and most have a life expectancy of about a decade, although electronics generally have a useful life of five years (if they are older than that, they won't add any value to the boat).  We'd prefer the older, sound hull with brand new systems and are willing to pay a premium for that.  I also belive that most experienced boaters that have done their own maintenance will immediately appreciate "above average" condition and be willing to pay for it, to a reasonable extent.  The other reason we've taken this approach is that I'm math challenged...    

Best of Luck!

Mike

[Stu Jackson]

Mike and Paul have great concepts.  I think a lot of the perceived value has to do with a definition of “what we put into” the boat, as perhaps compared to maintenance.  And then there are “the other things.”

I agreed with Cory to never to total up what we’ve spent, but I transferred my inventory from a word processing document onto a spreadsheet this year.  In almost 7 years we’ve spent about $36K, not including fuel, dock fees, insurance and loan costs - just boat stuff that I keep track of.

What did we “put in?”  Inverter/charger, Link 2000, battery combiner, alternator, regulator, new ProFurl, a used jib, new cabin lights, a stereo radio/CD and speakers (frugal from an electronics store and Radio Shack), and a replacement Autopilot.  This was maybe $6K to $8K.

Some others were related toys: a brand new dinghy and a used OB motor.

All the rest was pretty much maintenance.  New exhaust riser, batteries, new 3 inch HX, oil changes, tools, cleaning material, new standing rigging, new blocks for the mainsheet and deck organizers, quarterly bottom cleaning, haulout, line replacements, sail cleaning, fenders, head repairs and replacement pump, etc.   Could go on and on with this list.

Where does the new dodger go?  The old one literally fell apart, but the timing was right: just after we’d ordered the new one!  Standing rigging replacement included the ProFurl.  Starts to get complicated here in defining categories and costs.

Seems to me that a lot depends on what category some stuff goes into.  I don’t mean to start anything or request that we start making this thread a definition or list, but merely point out that some people could very well count everything they ever spent on a boat (and I'm sure some - though maybe not us! actually do this), while others may look at it (“put-ins”) as only permanent improvements that remain with the boat, with maintenance as a given sunk cost.

We were very fortunate in that our PO kept reasonably good maintenance records, and that the boat was in pristine shape.  Others have knowingly bought less well maintained boats and brought them back to life.  As noted above so much of pricing has to do with the condition of the boat and its systems.

But also a lot has to do with the knowledge level of the potential buyer.  When we first saw “Aquavite” I knew what I was looking at - the Harken Battcars and rigid vang, the lines led aft, the dodger, the condition of the engine, and other things.  I knew what I was looking at because I’d done my (dare I say this again?!?) homework, mostly on this website, and we’d looked at lots of other C34s.  If a potential buyer understands, that’s one thing.  If they’re just looking for 34 foot “boats” they may not be as specific in understanding the things that we all do to keep our boats in great condition.

[Mike Denest]

We recently purchased a 1988 shoal draft tall rig Catalina that's in very good condition for $55K.  With the upgrades (AC,  nav electronics, etc.) the surveyor appraised the boat at $58.5.  I had no problem getting financing for $50K and got two insurance quotes both offering coverage at the purchase price.  I also got a quote from Boat US but they would only go to $47K.  Despite a very good survey (the clerk at Boat US said "That's one man's opinion") they will not give me a comparable policy.  That tells me they did not bother to read the survey!!!  I requested that they give me a quote to compare against the other two.  They responded by stating that I do not have enough experience in a similar sized boat, which I do on a Raider 33 and Irwin 39 totalling about 3 years of experience.  Why are these people so hard to deal with?    Or am I being a PIA???  So much for my Boat US membership!   

[Footloose]

As was said before the local market means alot.  When we bought our C34 this past spring we had been looking for almost two year and had seen many leaky, stinky, and generally unkept boats.  We had driven around the northeast looking at boats.  When we saw this one we knew we wanted it and probally paid more than I should have but frustrantion from looking got in the way.  If your buyer is local and doesn't have to transport it that can also play in your favor.  I also didn't want to let this one get away.  It also happened to be sitting in the marina about 50 feet from our previous boat.  The frame of mind of the buyer is something you don't know but is a big factor in what someone is willing to pay.  Another used C34 was not on the market before nor has since on Lake Champlain so rarity played a factor.

I would also agree that you won't get out of it what you put into it.  This isn't a house although we may care for them more.  Some of the other Catalina's this was claearly what was going on. 

[Ken Heyman]

(I just realized that you are on the selling end but I believe the comments below are still relevant.

Interesting thread--------

We bought our 1988 C34 in the spring of 2003. The buyer was asking 54K. The boat withstood a survey with no significant concerns. I also went to NADA and was surprised to see the 35 - 40K value based on  comprably equipped 34's. The boat had been listed through a broker in the midwest and I asked them to do some research. They were quick to show me ask prices in the range of 50 60. k. I asked for some data as respects the final sale price. These numbers were in the 40 -50K range and that is where we ended up. I'm puzzled why NADA's prices seem to be way off the market irrespective of whether the sale is by owner or through a broker(perhaps all else equal sales prices may be a bit higher if sold through a broker).
I'm reasonalbly happy with the price we paid (and very happy with the c34) in that I haven't had any serious financial surprises although I continue to investigate a "barrier coat subject". This boat was supposed to have one and I'm not convinced it does.

Boats seem to be like stocks. They don't  care that we own them and have a gain or loss. The market is defined by two parties dealing at arms length. The market doesn't really care whether we have 'sunk" (pardon the pun) costs and lots of neat capital expenditures that we take pride in but does little if anything for the value.

In short I was fortunate to aquire a boat locally that I could sail 100 miles south on Lake MIchiigan and be done. That in it self mitigated concerns about perhaps paying more than NADA said I should.
Anyway good luck & I'm sure you will love the boat.

[Ted Pounds]

Ken,

Regarding your barrier coat:  I had the same question when I bought my boat.  Turns out it does have barrier coat, but the barrier coat is white  thus it was hard to tell from the gelcoat.  I have no idea what brand it is, but I have had no blistering problems.  One way to determine if you have the white barrier coat is to use some Peel-Away paint stripper.  It's gelcoat safe, but if left on long enough will take off barrier coat.  Try it on a small area and examine the layers it takes off.  You should be able to tell if you have a barrier coat.  I initally discovered this when I tried to stip the bottom myself.  I quickly realized the best way to go was to hire some one to corn blast it, which doesn't take off the barrier coat (but that's all covered in a previous topic.)

Ted

[Susan Ray]

Aloha,
On your interesting discussion of C34 value. I sold my C30-1987 and wanted to move up in size. I live in Hawaii and there are only about 10 C34's in all islands. I contacted several to see if they would sell and no way! They all love them.so.. I did my 'homework' and researched, and read up and talked to intelligent friends...then found a 1987 on line that was owned since new by one very conscience man. I purchased her this Sept. for $56k out of CA. sight unseen. I had a good friend, who knows more than I about boats, look at her and then had a survey done. The surveyed value was $60k (after having the standing rigging replaced, it was 18 years old). As the cost of delivery to Hawaii runs from 6-12k and the average purchase price was 57k for those here, (1986-1989) I considered this a good deal. This all done...the value is still only what someone is willing to pay. As a yacht broker here, I know she will retain or increase her value as there are so few good boats here and I will maintain and upgrade her (though still only called maintenance when it comes to selling). To end the story, she was single-handed from CA to here, by a good friend, in 20 days, with no major problems and is just what I  wanted! As a new owner I appreciate the great C34 site and all the information you have made available. Mahalo.
Susan 1987 C34#331 Allegro

[Ken Krawford]

I started this thread 8 months ago and have had a total of 1 offer ($35,000).  I guess there is a buyer out there somewhere but interest in this area of the country has been minimal.  Frankly, I'm rather surprised since the C34 has been a very popular boat here (Lake Lanier, GA).  As they say,  "Everything eventually sells.  It's just a matter of price and/or time"

[Jon Schneider]

Wow, that's depressing (one offer in months for way less than est.)  Could it possibly be that there is some "curb appeal" missing from your boat?  I live in a "floor-thru" of a brownstone in Brooklyn.  A few years ago the third and fourth floor apartments (floor thus) sold for a 50% difference entireley based on "curb appeal," and the one with less appeal took a year to sell while the other sold in three weeks.  Most buyers don't have much imagination. If your brightwork doesn't look good, they'll think your engine is iffy.  I seek boats (and real estate) that lacks curb appeal.

[Ray & Sandy Erps]

We're thinking about moving on to our next and final boat to take us down to Mexico and beyond in a few more years.  Our broker checked C-34's sold in the past year similar to ours, 1989.  Off the top of my head, the range was around 45k to 65k for boats ranging from 1988 to 1990.  C-34's sell fast here in Puget Sound and I don't expect any trouble selling ours once a good deal on our next boat comes along.  We really love our boat and one of the reasons we bought it is because of the great support on this board.

[Jim Price]

I am not trying to sell Krawford's boat even though we are in same Fleet and same marina, but I can tell anyone out there looking for a quality, WELL MAINTAINED, boat needs to contact Ken.  Since we have a good number of 34's on the lake, and they are ALL super maintained, we don't wish to see the great 34 reputation spoiled.  Ken's boat is worth every penny to someone that wants a sound boat.  I think some people want a 34 but can't really afford it and think we 34 owners are willing to give them away.  B S !!!

Hang in there Ken, someone out there will show up and ultimately get one heck of a boat.  We don't really want any "cheapscapes" owning our boats and not keeping the fleet up to it's outstanding level of quality!