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Author Topic: recourse for a bad survey? bottom worse than reported  (Read 2440 times)

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kerk fisher

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recourse for a bad survey? bottom worse than reported
« on: January 08, 2005, 09:51:03 AM »

After months of searching we found a boat we were very happy with and had it surveyed. I asked the surveyor to look at the bottom especially as the owner said that there were blisters.  He did and reported about 7 active blisters and previous blister work.  He did not feel that it needed peeling but just repair the individual blisters because there were so few. We had it shipped up to Torreson's Marine in Muskegon, MI and they were agast. Said it was the worse bottom they had ever seen, ever, and that with a meter they discovered that the bottom was soaking wet. (Maybe previous repairs were done over wet.Moisture is into the fiberglass and maybe laminate. !0,000$ or more.  Anybody ever have this experience and anything I can do, except cough up the repair?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 10:28:34 PM by Stu Jackson »
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Kerk Fisher
C34, Into the Mystic II
Hull #1102, 1990
Sailing the North Channel, Lake Huron
908 Wicksbury Place, Louisville, KY 40207
Louisville, KY 40205
502-454-7759
Alternate email: kerksailmystic@gmail.com

sail4dale

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Blisters
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2005, 01:52:42 PM »

I did the bottom on my previous boat a Cat30.  It was about 10 weeks out of the water including drying in a hull tent.  I had about 400 blisters and some were fairly deep.  They tested it with the moisture meter also.

I don't really understand the boatyards proposal to do the whole bit with only 7 blisters.  I would think the hull would show a water content even with no blisters.  If 7 blisters was the worst case they have ever seen, I don't think they are blister experts.

Have you purchased the boat yet?  If it was mine, my reaction would be repair the few blisters with the appropriate material and see what happens till the next haul out.  No boat has sunk from blisters .... they tell me.  If the seller is still involved you might work out a compromise on the repair.

I don't know how old the boat is ....  but Catalina does have a warranty on the newer boats.
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Cat34 Mk II True Luff #1582  2001
San Pedro, CA (Port of Los Angeles)

kerk fisher

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recourse for a bad survey? bottom worse than reported
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2005, 03:55:02 PM »

this is a 1990 model. And yes, we've purchased the boat already. 400 blisters! What did you do with them?  On my boat the blisters don't seem to be the problem as much as the previous repairs that might have been done over wet fiberglass and so the moisture has seeped along. How much moisture on a meter would be OK?
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Kerk Fisher
C34, Into the Mystic II
Hull #1102, 1990
Sailing the North Channel, Lake Huron
908 Wicksbury Place, Louisville, KY 40207
Louisville, KY 40205
502-454-7759
Alternate email: kerksailmystic@gmail.com

Paul Bosquet

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recourse for a bad survey? bottom worse than reported
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2005, 04:05:52 PM »

Kerk,
You said you told the surveyor to pay particular attention to the hull because there were blisters that yourself had noticed. However , you make no mention of a moisture test of the hull by the surveyor, only by the yard that is super happy to dig into you wallet. I know some surveyors do not perform moisture test and I find that appalling.
-Did your surveyor perform a moisture test on the hull and deck and cabin top?
-Does you surveyor have credential and what are they.?
-Does he have E & O insurance?
-Was there a contract / agreement ?
-What kind of contract did you sign with him, some limit their liability to the amount of the cost of the survey which I don't think stick very well with the courts.
-Were you present at the time of the survey?
-Did you sign the contract / agreement before the survey?

As far as the hull being soaking wet
1) How long was the boat out of the water before they did a moisture test?
2) Was the entire hull wet ?
3) Sometimes , the copper content of the anti-fouling paint will make a meter jump through the roof or sometimes the paint will stay moist and do the same thing. On one such occasion, I decided to take a grinder and sand several spots to the gel-coat to take a second reading and got no moisture, zilch, zero , nada. The owner was so happy , He wanted to kiss me , told him to forget it .

As a professional Marine surveyor, member of SAMS and ABYC, graduated from Chapman School of Seamanship's Yacht and Small Vessel Surveyimg, I do a moisture hull and deck test on every boat I survey whether for insurance renewal or prepurchase. It only fair to the client but also a good way to protect my %&*.
As far as recommending only to repair the existing blisters, does the surveyor have any real blister / fiberglass repair experience ? Otherwise it would have been better to recommend a specialist in that particular field to do an in depth analysis of the situation and make the proper recommendation. If the hull had a previous blister repair job and there are still blisters appearing, chances are it is not going to get better and a full peeling / drying period will be necessary before applying an Inter Protect application over a well dried hull. The last thing you want is to seal any moisture behind an epoxy treatment.
Sounds like the PO did a cosmetic repair job and did not address the problem properly. Then again , I did have a serious blister problem 300 +on an ERICSON and did just that, popped the blisters, dried them for several weeks and repaired  them. Never had another blisters. Lucky me.
 Its only a matter of time most of the time. No, the boat will not sink but it will affect the value of the boat.

Hope this gives you a little light on the matter.
If you have any question, you may email me or post it on the forum

Paul Bousquet SA
Marine Surveyor SAMS, ABYC

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C34 Eliosso
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ELIOSSO , ( Goddess of Lakes & Rivers )
C34, 1989, Hull #986

sail4dale

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recourse for a bad survey? bottom worse than reported
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2005, 07:51:11 PM »

Kirk,  We had the hull sand blasted and after that dried out.  After several weeks of tent drying till the moisture meter read it was dried, we epoxied the hull and applied bottom paint.    I agree with Paul about his reservations and questions regarding the yard and survey.

As to my Cat30, after the blister job, which occurred after the boat was 3 years old, I kept the boat for 18 years without any re-occurrence.
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Cat34 Mk II True Luff #1582  2001
San Pedro, CA (Port of Los Angeles)

Stu Jackson

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recourse for a bad survey? bottom worse than reported
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2005, 09:02:12 AM »

Kerk

I would suggest that you stop and take a deep breath.

You have a new-to-you boat and a potentially serious problem, based, however, on only one input, and that from a questionable source.

Paul's input is very valid.  Unfortunately, many of the marine surveyors south-of-the-border may not be, possibly, as reputable or thorough as Paul.  

As with all important issues, why not, in addition to your questions here, get a second opinion?

With your post here you HAD to give us the background.  When you get a second opinion from another surveyor on your boat, DON'T tell him the long story, just ask his opinion on the condition of your boat.  And it may not be a surveyor, you may have to look up a local "blister doctor."  Boatyards would like for you to spend money.  Ya just gotta look around.

Finally, do a search on this 'site on blisters if you haven't already.  In my six and a half years of activity here we haven't seen anyone sink yet, nor have reports about serious structural problems with C34s.  Valiants in the late 70s had a horrible blister problem.  Ours have usually been cosmetic.

Good luck.

PS  please post your hull #, year, location, etc on your signature so we can better help you.  Just edit your signature.  Thanks.
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

"There is no problem so great that it can't be solved."

Paul Bosquet

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recourse for a bad survey? bottom worse than reported
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2005, 10:38:08 AM »

Here are two addresses that I like on the subject. The second one , the forum, is quite good, you will get answers quickly.

http://www.osmosisinfo.com/
http://www.osmosisinfo.com/forum2/forum.html
You still need to have someone come by check and give you an opinion and recommendation, preferably not someone that will do the work or is affiliated with someone that will do the work. It must be totally unbiased.
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ELIOSSO , ( Goddess of Lakes & Rivers )
C34, 1989, Hull #986
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