Troubleshooting starter problem

[Kyle Ewing]

Assuming you have two batteries separated by the 1-2-Both switch, can you reproduce the problem with each battery individually? When unable to start, does moving to BOTH position help?  That test will eliminate issues from either battery to the switch.

If you haven't already, physically try to move/wiggle then tighten all the battery connectors between the engine, switch and battery, including those at the battery switch. Look for loose battery lugs.
 Sometimes a loose connection will still show voltage but not let enough current flow.

Only then would I replace parts.

[rjabara]

Thanks, all.  I'll tighten things up, check the voltages at each circuit and perhaps replace the the button as a starting point.

The wiring diagram was in the original owners manual, so not sure what that is about, but will look in the wiki.

Kyle, when the button didn't produce a crank, I tested it using all 3 positions.  All failed.

Rich

[Ron Hill]

Rich : Are you sure that you have a 4 cylinder, 35hp, M35B engine?  The reason I ask is because I didn't believe that it was available until 1995!!

A thought

[KWKloeber]

Rich : Are you sure that you have a 4 cylinder, 35hp, M35B engine?  The reason I ask is because I didn't believe that it was available until 1995!!

A thought

If NOT that explains a lot of things.  If its NOT an "A" or "B" engine then there's a couple things we need to reconsider as far ar what to look for!

[KWKloeber]

Thanks, all.  I'll tighten things up, check the voltages at each circuit and perhaps replace the the button as a starting point.

The wiring diagram was in the original owners manual, so not sure what that is about, but will look in the wiki.

Kyle, when the button didn't produce a crank, I tested it using all 3 positions.  All failed.

Rich

Rich

WHAT manual - the title or the publication number, or photo, please?

[rjabara]

Sorry I have been unresponsive, just back in country after 3 weeks.  Went to the boat today (before I saw your messages) to try to figure it out.  I took apart the cockpit panel and inspected the start button. The connections were clean and tight, voltage reading at .4.  I checked the connection at the starter assembly, which included a 20 amp fuse before it got to the starter assembly (picture attached).  The fuse looked old but not blown. Cleaned the connections, replaced the fuse, plugged it back into the starter assembly and it started right up.

Ron, I think you may be right as I dig deeper, may not be an M35B  , as only 30hp.  Here is a photo.  Maybe an M-35?  I will be back at the boat Saturday and send a picture of the original Catalina Operating Manual that I have.  In the meantime maybe you can identify by this pic I had in my phone.

Thanks again,

Rich

[KWKloeber]

Rich

She's an M-35.  You should hook up a hi temp alarm - thats what the brass pipe plug in the thermostat cap is for.

Ron,
by the color she looks like an M-35A but the wiring isn't 35A.  Did Universal use that color before Westerbeke changed the wiring?

[Ron Hill]

Rich : Another connection to check is the ground on the engine. It's out of the way, but something to check.

I'm very curious that you have a M35B engine in a 1990 C34 designed hull!! I say that because when I replaced my M25XP engine it would have taken way tooo much carpentry and interior modification to stuff a 4 cylinder engine in that engine compartment that was made for a 3 cylinder engine !!

A few thoughts

[rjabara]

Ron, it was sold to me as a 30HP engine.  Some of the notes I have from the original owner shows "B" and MK1.5, but now not sure on either, lol.  I'll look at the manual again tomorrow when I am there.

Engine ground looks to be in good shape.

Anyway, as mentioned, I got it to start reliably after playing with the in-line fuse wire to the starter assembly/solenoid.  Probably not a permanent solution however so I will look to replace that wire/fuse assembly.

Rich

[Ron Hill]

rich : Get rid of that glass inline fuse and go to a "stab-in" fuse and holder. Then I believe that all of your starting problems will go away!!  Looks Like your engine ground is NOT corroded!! 

Yes, it is a 30hp engine made by Universal (Oshkosh), not Westerbeke !

A thought

[KWKloeber]

Rich

See the bottom of the last page of Rodd's article.
https://pbase.com/mainecruising/universal_wiring_harness_upgrade&page=all


Go ahead and bookmark Rodd's pages - you will refer to them often!
https://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects
https://marinehowto.com/


I'm troubled why the engine model is such a question.  Regardless of what 👨 ual was aboard or what a PO said, the engine model is painfully obvious!

[rjabara]

Thank you for the links.  Very helpful.

I wasn't sure if the manufacturer omitted the "A" or "B" or "AC" from these labels, so as a new owner not that obvious to me, but still learning.

Thanks for your help.

[Stu Jackson]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

by the color she looks like an M-35A but the wiring isn't 35A.  Did Universal use that color before Westerbeke changed the wiring?

Sometimes with Ken one requires a scorecard or translator decoder ring.

On another boating forum, I just recently "discovered" the secret to Ken's invention of "A" series engines.  After reading it, I noted:  "I get disheartened by this "XPA" thing, because it confuses the issue of an XPB which is a completely different engine than an M25 or M25XP. If he would just type M25XP space space space A(C), it would be much clearer, i.e., M25XP  A - there IS an XPB engine, there IS NOT an XPA engine!!!" and "My take is: So, your M25XPA(C) is simply an M25XP painted grey with a Catalina cockpit panel and associated wiring."  I don't consider the "A" features Ken notes blow added to be "of the engine" - they are warning buzzer type things, not the beast of the engine itself.




Here it is:

Kloeber Engine History

https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/message/114243

On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 David wrote:
@Ken
You stated that my motor is a Westerbeke. It says Universal on it. Was Westerbeke doing some sub manufacturing for Universal?
***
David

Medalist Universal Motors in Oshkosh WI built the original Universals, e.g., Atomic 4, 5411, M-18, 5421, M-25, M-25XP, M-35, M4-30, etc.
In 1990 Westerbeke purchased and eventually moved Universal production to its Avon MA location (current location is Tauton MA.)

Regarding Universal model numbers: After the purchase, Wb continued to produce the same M-25XPs, etc., (built using Kubota engines) but transitioned to manufacturing them (in 1993) with the designation "A" - e.g., M-25XPA, M-35A, etc., which had these mods:

1) Engine color changed from Copper-Bronze to silver and finally to Ice Blue.

2) Changed the engine wiring to its "Westerbeke standard" (to mimic the "Westerbeke propulsion engine" wiring that it used since forever.)  These have the convoluted wiring that's a nightmare to troubleshoot when an engine alarm fails (it's frequently due to the harness.)  The harness is also more intricate and difficult to work on than it should be.  KISS. (But Wb probably saves twenty dollars per engine when installing it.)

3) Added onto the "A" series engines:
(a) An on-engine, 20-a Circuit Breaker (in part it protects the feed up to the cockpit panel);
(b) A Glow-Plug-Preheat Solenoid;
(c) A fail-safe shutdown; i.e., cuts power to the fuel pump if oil pressure is lost (which doesn't always work/shut down on all models and (IMO) is pretty useless and troubleshooting becomes a nightmare if the harness fails and the fuel pump won't run);
(d) Modified where/how the Oil Pressure Alarm Switch is located/configured,
(e) Provided for an Oil Pressure Sender (a Gauge is optional on the Wb "Universal" panels -- apparently, Catalina never "noticed the benefit" of an Oil Pressure Gauge);
(f) A High-Temp Switch to the Thermostat Cap.

4) Produced (and still produces) a "(C) series" -- e.g., your M-25XPA(C) and now, e.g., the M-25XPB(C), M-35B(C)).  "C" engines are wired to "C"atalina's spec (so the harness mates with Catalina cockpit panels instead of "Universal" brand panels, which are identical to, and simply rebranded, "Westerbeke" panels.)  One difference with the "(C)" standard is that Westerbeke/Universal panels have different engine alarm wiring (a second cable and plug, whereas Catalina's engine and alarm wiring pass through a single harness plug.)  There are probably other differences but (although I've studied both the Wb and Wb "(C)" schematics) I haven't looked for every difference -- I just know about the alarm from the practical aspect of wiring both types of panels.

5) The "A" (and now "B") engines continue to use the 9-pin harness plug, but it is higher quality than the disastrous (reportedly "hot glue") Gummy Bear plugs that Catalina used to mate to the Oshkosh Universal engines and is also on the back of the OEM Catalina Panels (by Seaward.)

In 1996-1998 Westebeke transitioned from the Universal "A" series to the "B" engines, i.e., M-35B, M-40B, M-50B, M-25XPB**, M3-20B** (** current models.)  The "B" series continue with essentially the same mods as on the
"A" engines.  Although Wb piggy backed onto the same model numbers it's just marketing -- although they are still built using Kubota engines, the only commonality between the "B" engines and former (Oshkosh and "A") engines, is the number of cylinders.

One owner I know, when repowering from an Oshkosh M-25 to a Westerbeke/Universal M-25XPB, ripped out the Westerbeke wiring and rewired it to the "old" system.  Much simpler and (IMO) better!

[Stu Jackson]

Stu
I'm not at all following what you are claiming. 

Are you saying that Universal never made
(!) ANY "A" or "A(C") engine (e.g., M-35A(C)?
Or
(2) specifically an M-25XPA or M-25XPA(C) engine?

No, Ken, I'm not "claiming" anything. 

What I wrote was:  "I get disheartened by this "XPA" thing, because it confuses the issue of an XPB which is a completely different engine than an M25 or M25XP. If he would just type M25XP space space space A(C), it would be much clearer, i.e., M25XP  A - there IS an XPB engine, there IS NOT an XPA engine!!!"

So, Ken, instead of you typing M25XPA, please type M25XP A.

That's all.