Auto Pilot, Navigation, Instruments and Software Integration

[RaymondP]

I am the new to me owner of a 1986 Catalina 34 Tall Rig.  Presently reading up as much as I can to learn what I will need when Spring 2024 arrives.  (Boat is on the hard in it's winter cradle right now).

Even though I have sailed for many years on other peoples boats, I have not really familiarized myself with the nav and instruments available, as I am usually racing
- foredeck or at the mast.  I now plan to undertake more leisurely cruising on the Great Lakes and anticipate a small crew or possibly single handing once the boat is correctly outfitted and I am able to build some degree of confidence.

At the moment the original wheel auto pilot does not work, the speed indicator is not believable, and I have no wind instruments or navigation of any type.  About the only thing that does work is the depth gauge; good thing given the 5ft 7" draft!

Please assume I don't know what I don't know. I was first considering a Raymarine EV-100 replacement system for the auto pilot, plus an ipad with accompanying navigation software, but can't find any info on how these would integrate to allow for chart plotting a course, setting way points etc.  More I look into it, the more complex it quickly becomes with systems and terms I am not familiar with, as well as some big holes in what I ultimately I hope to accomplish in terms of an affordable but (somewhat if not completely integrated) system, or at least a system where the components talk to each other.  Thought I would tap into the collective knowledge and experience of this forum for advice and recommendations, plus perhaps some reliable reading resources to get me back on track.

Thank you in advance for your good input and time.

   

[Stu Jackson]

Welcome, Raymond.

System integration between nav instruments and autopilots is a fascinating subject.   It breaks down simply:  Yes or No.

The Yes camp says it's great for using routes.

The No camp suggests that most autopilots require a confirmation before a new course is actually implemented so it's not a step-saving device anyway.

I don't think integration is worthwhile or makes sense to me.  I have an ST3000 belt drive wheel pilot and a handheld Garmin GPSMap 76Cx.  Having them separate helps me keep my head outside the boat where it belongs.  Changing AP course is not hard, a button push away.  I placed my AP control head midway so I can easily reach it from either behind or in front of the wheel.  I spend all my time in front of the wheel except for docking.  I believe one shouldn't "be a slave behind the wheel."  There's a few Single Handing 101 threads in the 101 Topics you might enjoy reading.  I sail singlehanded by choice and with my son we sailed from San Francisco to British Columbia in 2016 with this gear and borrow large scale charts and cruising guides to harbors.  I had one skipper who provided us with waypoints in his route feature for going up a river on a cruise back in San Francisco.  He had literally a hundred of them in maybe 10 nm!  I used four!

Congratulations on your new boat.  Please familiarize yourself with the Critical Upgrades topic, too.

[Noah]

Very much a personal choice and budget driven question. I have a system on the high-end (cost-wise and complexity) It is a B&G fully integrated system with a below deck autopilot and networked multifunction displays and a suite of sailing instruments. Expensive to buy and install, but works well 90% of the time, like most technology. Like Stu, I mostly sail single-hand, but unlike Stu — I don't feel like a slave behind the wheel when steering, as part of my "sailing thing" is I like to steer the boat—but I don't have to if I don't want to and often don't on a passage. I like looking at my track (set on heads-up display) on the chart plotter while at the helm and when on autopilot I can dodge a degree or two Port or Starboard easily. I also sometimes use my autopilot on "wind mode" not "heading mode", which requires an integrated system. As they say—your boat, your choice.

[tvorgitch]

I have an Raymarine C70 chart plotter with integrated ST60 instruments and a ST4000+ autohelm. I've only had the boat for a couple of years, but I find the "wind" mode very helpful when sailing singlehanded as it makes it easy to keep the boat pointed into the wind while raising the main.

When I purchased the boat, the chart plotter and GPS were not functional, so I had to disconnect the autohelm as I was getting "no data" errors and I wanted the autohelm working for the 12 hour trip to my marina.  All I could do was put the boat on heading and hit the auto button to stay on course.

Once I got everything working, I've probably used goto waypoint once or twice and goto cursor a few times, so I don't really make use of any routes. And as Stu pointed out, you have to Ok the changes anyway, so it's not really much a help. But I do love the wind function. It keeps me from yelling at someone for not keeping the boat pointed into the wind.

[waughoo]

I have an e127, i70 multi displays and an evolution wheel pilot with rudder reference.  I OFTEN lay in a route and use the track function.  With the rocky bottom we have here in the PNW I find it helpful as it will keep me on the line I drew on the chart.  Just setting a compass heading won't allow for cross track error from current.  It also allows one to know ETA information or even ETA to a given way point along the route.  Additionally, I use the "wind" function a lot when out for a sail.  It allows me to keep the boat set on a trimmed course for the sails and frees me up for sail tweaks and other skipper fuss about items. 

I built my set up with used gear I bought off ebay piece by piece.  Even the auto pilot is a collection of used bits... the wheel drive came with the boat attached to the failed st4000+ (had to install a new belt and clutch bits), the p70s control head was used, the rudder reference came with an as is sale of a s2g smart pilot kit that was cheaper than I could get the sensor by itself, and the compass/gyro gizmo was a used unit from a Florida used boat gear shop.  It took a while to get all the parts, but the hunt was fun and I still saved enough money over buying a complete unit to make financial sense.

As for your unreliable speed, it could just need a new paddle wheel.  Mine was un reliable at first until I swapped it out.  It might also need a calibration too.

If you can get your instruments and auto pilot networked, you can use a multiplex wifi gizmo to make them all talk to a tablet running navionics which would even be able to do routs etc.  Check out sailproof tablets.  They make one suitable for daylight reading.

Hope that is helpful.

[AndyBC]

When I bought my C34 earlier this year, the ST4000 auto-pilot didn't work and neither did the ST50+ wind or speed.  I have since installed the EV100 auto-pilot which works great.  As far as I know, it is not possible to integrate the EV100 with the ipad.  You would need an STng or NMEA2000-compatible chartplotter.  This off-season I plan to purchase/install new speed/depth+wind transducers and the i70s display, plus the Axiom+ chartplotter/MFD, which will integrate with the EV100 and the other instruments via the STng backbone that I've already setup with the auto-pilot.  A couple of others above mentioned about having to manually approve waypoint course changes.  The Axiom+ allows you to auto-approve waypoints, so no manual input from you needed (of course you'll still need to stay nearby and keep an eye out for any hazards).

How was your survey?  Any major projects on your to-do list?

[Jim Hardesty]

Welcome Raymond,
I sail the Great Lakes mostly single handed some of my cruises have been over 1000 nm.  I have a wheel pilot ev-100 that I'm happy with although I believe the wheel drive is not quite robust enough, use it 90+% of the time, but I've rejected a below deck drive.  I intend to carry a spare wheel drive on my next cruise.  I have a stand-alone B&G chart plotter bought as a factory rebuild.  Use my cell phone navtronics apt for back-up but find it hard to see in sunlight.    For me I see no reason to have it all tied together.
I belong to Great Lakes Cruising Club.  Thier harbor reports are a great way to plan a cruise.  Tonight Nov 16th is a webinar you may be interested in presented by their school I think there's a small charge for nonmembers.
https://www.glccschool.com/product/introduction-cruising-great-lakes
Also in case you don't know there is an excellent organization of Great Lakes Solo Racers.  I was thinking of taking up the challenge, but started having health issues and the multi-night sailing didn't sound like a good idea.  I did get many excellent tips from them for safely single-handing.
https://www.solosailors.org/
I would suggest you add boat information to your signature.  Helps getting the best answers to your questions.  Just see what others have done.
Jim

[waughoo]

As far as I know, it is not possible to integrate the EV100 with the ipad.  You would need an STng or NMEA2000-compatible chartplotter.

It is indeed possible and you can get the tablet to "drive" the boat.  I built one for a customer and it worked just fine.  You would need a wifi gateway on your nmea network that the tablet would connect to.  I have used this one on my own boat with success.

https://www.yachtd.com/products/wifi_gateway.html

[KeelsonGraham]

Hi Raymond,

Welcome to the club! I was in your position 2 years ago and opted to splash some cash on a Raymarine system comprising Axiom chart plotter, i70 multifuction display, new Raymarine tri-sensor (speed, depth and water temp), a new Raymarine anemometer an AIS700 and a Quantum radar. I decided to keep the old Raymarine wheel pilot and it's head unit. Big mistake.

The advantage of buying a whole new set was that it was child's play to set up. Literally plug and play, though you do have to do a bit of boat yoga to run the cables.

I can have the chartplotter repeated on iPad but it's pretty clunky. Instead I run Navionics independently on the iPad and iPhone which gives me additional displays,  while ensuring system redundancy.

A NEW Raymarine wheel pilot is an OK autopilot system, provided you use it for what it's designed for - light coastal work. It is not up to the job of sailing downwind in large swells. Ours broke 150 miles offshore leaving us to hand steer for two days. No fun at all. An old system is a breakdown waiting to happen. I wouldn't like to rely on even a new one when singlehanding during a gale.

One good reason for linking the A/P to the rest of the gear would be to let it steer by wind angle. But in two years I've never bothered.

If you need to save money go for the wind and water sensors, an IS70 multifunction display, and a new wheel pilot bundle. Use an iPad for a chart plotter and don't worry that it's not linked to the rest.

Next in importance is an AIS transceiver with Axiom chartplotter. This is an almost indispensable safety aid. We use it actively every time we sail.

Last, if you can endure the expense and pain, get a below decks A/P. Not easy to install in a Catalina but lovely to have.

Finally, whether you have a wheel pilot or belowdecks A/P, a rudder position sensor greatly improves the accuracy of the A/P.  It's included in the below decks bundle, not sure about the wheel pilot bundle. (You can save a ton of money buying kit bundles rather than individual components).

Radar is used the least. But on one night passage with thunderstorm cells all around it was massively helpful and allowed us to steer a passage between them.

[Jon W]

Most products do the same thing, but get there in different ways. Your best first step is to go look at the products and screens of all the manufacturers in person. You may find one fits your personality better than the others.

I single hand my 1987 MK1, and like Stu I don't like being stuck behind the wheel. I installed my system in 2016. I'm very happy with it, but it's antiquated compared to todays product offerings.

I went with Raymarine eS98 MFD at the Nav Station, i70 and i60 displays at the helm, DST800 transducer in STBD FWD salon locker, wind transducer at masthead, Quantum CHIRP 24 Nm radar on the mast, CPT110 thru hull Downvision Transducer under the V-berth drawer, all tied together on a SeaTalkNg network. In the cockpit I use a 10" Samsung tablet in a mounting bracket as a repeater of the chartplotter. I have a RAM mount on the Bimini, and one on the Dodger to mount it. The Raymarine App allows most, if not all, of the functionality of the expensive chartplotter, but the tablet is much cheaper. It connects to the chartplotter via WIFI so no wires to connect, and I can move it around in the cockpit. AIS is a Vesper XB-8000 tied into the network. My autopilot is an old school no frills CPT Wheelpilot. It is a stand alone device so not connected to the network. Point the boat where you want to go, flip a switch and it holds the course. Push a button to change course in single digit increments, 10 degree, or a full tack. Strong motor, waterproof, quiet, I love it.

[RaymondP]

BIG THANKYOU everyone, for providing some great feedback.  Have read and reread your solutions to my similar challenge.  Very informative.  Seems I am on the right track - sort of!!

I have an ST4000+ autopilot.  To be honest, I have not played with it yet, but on the advice of the previous owner had assumed it was inoperative as he had suggested.  Lots to investigate further, but keeping an eye on the ultimate goal, and taking a modest approach here is where I am.,,,

1. Replace autopilot with EV-100 kit, wheel version.  From my understanding to get the most from this, I will need some sort of wind instruments to talk with the autopilot.  Also nice to have!  Trying to determine best solution here, as unclear if the EV-100 supplied MFD will read/display the wind data (speed and direction) or if I need another display. Seems I would be purchasing redundancy if I purchase the entire dedicated wind setup (mast head instrument plus display) but uncertain.  Want to be sure it works hand-in-hand with the autopilot to allow the sail-to-wind setting on the autopilot to be used.
2. So question is what would be the appropriate wind instrument set up.  I can run cable in the mast as necessary, but understand a WiFi set up easy easier.  However as I don't have wifi on the boat it seems like another rabbit hole??
3.  Question - is it worth getting wifi installed now or maybe later?  The answer maybe in my plan to use an ipad/Navionics software, but I appreciate it's another can of worms to integrate navigation with the autopilot, either immediately or down the road.   (Interesting that the Raymarine Chart Plotters (more costly) uses Navionics.

And final question, as the legacy depth gauge and speedo still work(?) will these also be duplicates of the data provided with the autopilot display.  (Maybe I'm confusing the included autopilot display capabilities with the MFD (i70) that seems to do everything???

Thoughts?  Again, as you can I'm see somewhat confused.  As I have just purchased the boat funds are a bit limited, so want to be sure the route taken isn't inadvertently introducing redundancies or unnecessary expenses.   I did visit and talk with a Raymarine local dealer who seemed unable or uncertain to answer some of the basic questions and was also not offering any deals at the time, so not hugely confident. 

Thanks again for you feedback and assistance on this journey.

[Jon W]

To help clear the mud; the MFD is a Multi Function Display also called a chartplotter. The i70 is not an MFD, it is a display of data like water depth, temperature, windspeed/direction, GPS, etc. There is some overlap with the MFD in what the i70 display's, but you can plot routes on the MFD as one example. They are two different devices.

[waughoo]

The MfD / Autopilot control screen will not REALLY give you wind data.  It has the ability to show a couple small boxes of numerical data from the network, but not the graphical data most helpful for wind.  If you already have legacy depth and speed through the water instruments, and they are presently working, you can get an ITC-5 unit from Raymarine that will accept the analog data from the wired speed and depth units and turn it into the digital signal for the nema 2k network.  You can then get a mast head WIRED wind transducer and an i70 display which will show the wind speed, depth and speed through the water as a single instrument.

Once the autopilot and the wind instrument are networked onto the nmea 2k network, your autopilot will be able to use the wind data to steer to a given wind angle.

Hopefully that helps.  Let me know if you have further questions.

[WTunnessen]

Justin

Last fall I had to replace both my autopilot and chart plotter and since I already had the wireless Raymarine wind and depth instruments, I've had to address some of the integration questions you are asking about.

1. EV - 100 and wind gauge:  While the EV 100 can be networked with a wind instrument, its not required.  The trade off will be that the autopilot is limited to steering to just a compass bearing.

2. Wireless Instruments & Networking:  To network my existing wind/depth instruments to the new autopilot & new chart plotter, I had to install a Micro-Talk router that links the wireless devices to the SeaTalk wire network.  https://www.raymarine.com/en-us/our-products/marine-instruments/wireless-and-racing-instrument-accessories/micro-talk-performance-sailing-gateway

So if you go wireless and want to network the instruments, you might need to factor the Micro-Talk router into your cost equation.  It also must be mounted outside and within a specific range of the wireless instrument.

And just to clarify, the wireless instruments are specialized and are not MFD, so they can not be used to run the EV-100.

3. RE: Wireless or wired wind instruments:  I have mixed feelings about wireless wind because I find that its frequently about 5 to 10 degrees off.  2 years ago I had to send it back to Raymarine to get the calibration repaired after about 8 years of service.  But recently I've noticed that is sometimes off.    Perhaps that true with all wind gauges?

-Walt

[Jim Hardesty]

1. Replace autopilot with EV-100 kit, wheel version.  From my understanding to get the most from this, I will need some sort of wind instruments to talk with the autopilot.

I installed an EV-100 autopilot.  To get the steer to wind with the 2001 vintage Raymarine wind instrument needed to buy a "backbone" wire or adaptor, think that's what Raymarine called it.  Works sort-of.  I believe it steers to the wind instrument but the air up there is disturbed by the sails. Have the standard Raymarine mount attached to the front of the masthead.   Works best when wind is on the beam.   Most of the time the autopilot is set to a heading and I adjust the sails as needed.  For me I wouldn't spend a lot of money or time to have the steer to wind function.
I do think the EV-100 works best with a rudder position sensor.  I would recommend installing one if you don't already have one, it's the same as used on the ST-4000.
Jim