Electrical system upgrade advice wanted

[Kyle Ewing]

In October I purchased a 1990 Catalina 34 with Universal M25XP.  The electrical system is factory except a previous owner added a third group 24 battery.  The existing batteries are different brands and unknown age so I plan to replace all.  While replacing, I am contemplating electrical upgrades, most of which were inspired from this site’s content.  I’d like the group’s opinions.

1) Replace three group 24 batteries with 2 6-volt batteries for the house bank and a group 24 or 27 starting battery.  I plan to place all batteries in the battery compartment in front the galley.  My measurements show they should fit.

2) Upgrade stock alternator with high output alternator and external regulator.  Have the alternator charging the house bank directly and charge the starting battery through a Statpower Echocharge.  This was recommended by Balmar instead of a combiner, although a combiner could perform the same function.

3) Replace the current 1-2-both battery switch with a simple on-off switch to control the house bank.  Move the 1-2-both switch under the head sink and use it as two on-off switches to connect the starting battery (1 position), combine both banks (both position), turn on the house bank (2 position) for starting, or disconnect the starting bank (off).  I prefer this to two switches because of space.

4) Upgrade battery cable size from the current 4 gauge wiring.  I’d eliminate the run to the starting battery from the current switch and add a run from the starting bank through the new 1-2-both switch.

5) Add fuses to batteries as required.

6) I plan to leave the existing AC charger (Pro Mariner 2 bank 20 amp) and replace it when it dies.

My goals are to improve starting efficiency (I figure I’ll cut the starting circuit length in half) and provide enough power to run 24+ hours without requiring a charge (I estimate 100 amp hours per 24 hours).  Additionally, when the survey was performed, it was noted the battery cables appeared undersized so I also want to address any safety issues, especially with larger capacity batteries.

My main question involves the upgrade of the battery cables.  Just how large of a job is this?

There are 2 tubes (about 1” diameter each) taking wires and battery cables between the battery compartment and holding-tank compartment.  There is a single tube conducting wires between the holding-tank compartment and head area.  Are the wires inside the tubes bundled together requiring that all wires be pulled and rerun or can just the battery cables be pulled through.  What’s the largest battery cable that will fit?  I’ll be adding a battery cable run aft.

Hopefully my plans are understandable.  This is a project where a diagram is worth many words.

Thanks in advance for any advice that you can offer.

Kyle Ewing
Hull #1010, Donnybrook
Chicago, Illinois
kewing@rcnchicago.com

[Kyle Ewing]

Thanks, Ron.  I got most of the ideas on-line and was looking for general comments on the overall project.

My specific questions are about upgrading the battery cables.  It looks like a large job with some unknowns.  Because of the tight spaces and the way everything is bundled, I'd estimate 16-24 hours of work.  Is this reasonable?  If there is anything written specifically on this, I'd appreciate a pointer to it.

Specifically, are the wires and cables in the conduit bundled together?  If not, is there enough room to safely pull the new larger cables through?  It looks tight but doable.  If you weren't able to use the existing conduits, how did you run the cables?

What are people's experiences with the Statpower Echocharge?  What are the pros and cons over the traditional battery combiner?

Thanks in advance.

Kyle Ewing
#1010 Donnybrook
Chicago
kewing@rcnchicago.com

[Gene Regan]

Dear Kyle             Tie fish cable wire to existing cables and and lubricate new cables with marine grease lightly, and the pull through conduit, should be simple enough, make sure every foot or so you tape new wires together in harness style and its always better for wire pulling if things are warm.
Wire guage should be whatever rating should be for amount of amps being drawn, great book to refer to is the 12 Volt Bible, available on line through Amazon.com.
Good luck with your project
Gene Regan 713
Liberty

gene regan

[Stu Jackson]

Kyle

Interesting overall request that really opens up a tremendous new subject topic:  Catalina Electrical Systems.  

There really are any number of ways to do this, but it sounds like you are heading in the right direction, and your description was very good.   These are my comments on your items.

1   The very best thing you can do to enhance your electrical system (other than wiring size) is to increase the house bank to as large as you can make it.  This extends the life of the batteries, and reduces charging time.  Given your plans, I would recommend that you go for (4) 6 volt batteries which fit perfectly inside the existing battery box, and locate the starting battery elsewhere.  Having done a few of these electrical remodels on C34s, one of the easiest places for the starting battery is just forward of the starboard water tank, since it’s accessible, but not so useful for daily items.  If your energy budget says 100 amp hours a day, and you’re looking to only use down to 50%, the 220 AH you get from only 2 golf carts seems OK on the surface.  But if you build in charging inefficiencies, and the like, and engine running time, you’d be a lot better off with four golf carts and 440 AH.  We have 365 AH (not golf carts) and went four days without charging on the hook this summer â€" fridge, lights, stereo, the works.  Don’t skimp on the house bank.

2   Limit your new alternator to about 90 â€" 100 amps.  As previously mentioned in the C34 website, anything larger puts unnecessary side strain on the main engine bearings.  In addition, with the three stage regulator, you’ll get all you need to charge your batteries with this size alternator.  The larger house bank will help here also.  The Echocharge will work just as well as a combiner, based on the single output alternator.  You need to think about what you will replace your old shorepower charger with â€" if you get a single output charger, you can use the Echocharge.  OTOH, the Statpower Truecharge charger, which is what you’ll eventually WANT to get, has dual outputs, so that’s not a problem.  So, the choice you have is go that way, OR spend the extra $100 on a dual output alternator in lieu of the $99 to $130 for the Echocharge.  Your choice.  A smart three stage regulator works with single and dual output alternators â€" you don’t need two regulators for a dual output alternator.  The advantage of the Echocharge is that it only feeds about 15 amps max to the starting battery.  It, or a combiner, will also allow you to add a solar panel in the future and charge both banks.  The Echocharge and the combiner perform similar functions.  The Echocharge parallels the batteries but limits the charge to the start battery to about 15 amps regardless of what the charging source is outputting.  The combiner simply parallels them, but the acceptance rate of the banks determines how much goes to each, anyway.  Arguments exist pro and con for both, I believe it’s a matter of splitting hairs:  they both allow you to do one important thing:  leave the 1-2-B switch on the house bank forever (unless you need the backup start battery).  Another reason to not spend time or $ changing switches!

3   New switches:  I wouldn’t bother.  Why do all the work when you’re upsizing the wiring?  The whole idea of separating to two on/off switches is ONLY to avoid forgetting to switch the switch anyway.  If you can do all this planning and work yourself, you should be able to deal with remembering to move the switch when it’s time to do so!   :rolleyes:  As long as the wire sizes are increased, the extra few feet to the existing switch location is NOT an issue.  The nonsense that has been written about long wiring lengths only applies if the wires are undersized (as, unfortunately, they were on our boats - #4s â€" sheez…)

4   4 gage wire is definitely undersized.  Each boat is put together a bit differently, and your “tubes” don’t exist on our boat.  Sounds like you can either use the tubes (conduits) to pull the new wires through as you pull out the old ones, or you could leave the old #4 wires in place and just buy separate #4 wires and parallel them.  Two #4s equal one #2 pretty much.  That’ll save you BIG $$ on the new wiring.  

5   Good idea to fuse the batteries.  The mega fuses are just fine for this.

6   Your choice, it’ll go sooner, we hope.  By NOT doing this now, you will begin to kill your new batteries the minute you install them.  Why not spend the $ you save on not putting new switches in, and buy a Statpower Truecharge now?

You’re right that there is not much on the site about the main wiring, but you’re asking about how much time it will take and about wiring in conduits that only you can see on your boat.  Our wires are run from the batteries across the bilge and up aft of the holding tank to the 1-2-B switch.  The (+) wires from the solenoid and the alternator and the main (â€") wires run around the port side of the engine, into under the head sink and dive down below the floor and come out in the aft bilge section near the base of the water heater.  No conduits.  So, either parallel them with new #4s, or replace.  Conduit’s a good idea, not absolutely necessary.

Great question, good luck.

Stu

[Mark Elkin]

Kyle, I upgraded my 1986 C34's electrical system a year ago.  And I pretty much agree with most of what's already been written.  I've put pictures and explanations on my own project pages and some supplemental information on the C34 Projects pages.

Stu mentioned putting the starting battery in the settee by the stb water tank.  And that's certainly a possibility.  But I already had a 3rd house battery at that location, so I put the starter battery just behind the engine.  My web pages detail this project.

Regarding the conduits:  I pulled new wires though the conduits without any problems.  The wires are not bundled inside the conduit, so there was no interference problems.  Whether you use #4 or #2 wire, it should be stiff enough that you should be able to just push the wire through the conduit without needing to tape/tie/strap/etc it to another wire to be pulled.  I found it easier to feed and push the wire from the nav station side verses the opposite ends.

HINT: Smaller wires could be a problem pushing through the conduit.  So if you ever think you're going to add smaller wires later for any reason, then I suggest you tape some twine near the leading edge of the new mains and allow it to be pushed through with the wire.  Once it's through, just remove the tape and pull some more through.  Cut the twine, leaving about 2 feet on each side.  Then the next time, you've already got a pulling aid in place.  (Be sure to pull a new piece of twine though with each new wire.)

Mark Elkin
Yorkshire Rose, #133

[John Gardner]

Mark,
I'm planning to do much the same as Kyle, and was considering putting an engine starting battery exactly where you have done.  However, I wondered whether the engine would make that area a bit warm for the battery and was beginning to think of the wet locker instead?
Seeing how tight it is, what size engine starter battery do you use?
John
therese.john@verizon.net

[Kyle Ewing]

The idea of running two #4 cables in parallel intrigues me.  I’ll have to research that some more.  I didn't take into account charging inefficiencies when sizing so I’ll take that into account.  

Regarding dual output alternators, I ran my plans by Balmar’s technical support and the gentleman I talked to (extremely helpful!) turned me away from the dual output alternator for separate house and starting banks on a sailboat.  He said even though there are two outputs, the power output is the same based on the needs of the bank the regulator is connected to.  The starting battery if used only for starting doesn’t discharge that much and is subject to overcharging.  He said I’d be better of spending the money on a single-output connected to the house bank and the Echo-charge.  I hadn't heard of the Echo-charge until he mentioned it, but based on what I've researched and the opinions of the group, I'll probably use one.

I tend to agree with Stu’s thoughts on the battery switch.  I’m considering the multiple switches because it seems to be considered “best practice”, however for me personally I’m used to the traditional 1-2-both switch.  I’d probably mess up with a new set of switches before I’d mess up the 1-2-both switch.

The fact that the wiring isn’t bundled in the conduits (at least on other boats) is a relief!  The bundle of wires coming from the panel is intimidating, but less so the more I study it.  My biggest fear is to start then find I have to disconnect every wire, remove, bundle with new battery cables, then pull through again and reconnect.  

Thank you to everyone who responded!  It’ll be a few months before I begin, but I’ll try to document my project to use as a resource for others.  

Kyle Ewing
#1010, Donnybrook
Chicago, Il
Kewing@rcnchicago.com

[cholder]

A comment on wiring sizes between the batteries and the starter.  The original #4 cables on my C34-1988 were way too small and led to high voltage drops when the starter is hot (they draw more current when hot).  After some exciting restarts coming into the marina, we replaced the cables with very heavy duty 3/0 or 000(three ought) cables.  We've never regretted the change since it created a massive backbone to the whole power system and was much cheaper than a burned out starter or a damaged boat.

You can do the job yourself and you don't need to buy fancy marine cables because you've so oversized them.  The companies that sell this heavy cable will also rent out the cutters and crimping tools.

I installed a windlass and used the same type of cables from the battery box, along the starboard side behind the deck/hull joint facade.  Easy to do once you get used to wrestling with a snake like cable in a smallish space.  3/0 cable is about the diameter of your index finger.

[jentine]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Your electrical system has worked well for the past 12 years.  Why the great rush to fix it.  Have you added new equipment to the boat that requires added energy storage or do you have more money and time to play than you really know what to do with.
There are probably many items that were indicated on the purchase survey that could better benefit you, your boat's and your crew's safety, health and well being more than an upgrade to an electrical system that has functioned well.
Reassess your motives.
Jim Kane

[Stu Jackson]

Kyle

If the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" idea doesn't work for you, because you like improving things, and want to spend some time on the hook instead of plugged in, try the following.  All of our boats are, by now very different, electricly.

n  
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary and helpful for one people to assist their friends and colleagues, and to assume among the powers of the electrons, the separate and equal station to which the Law of Physics entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of spouses and family and yachting opinions requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the confluence of goals.

We hold these truths to be self evident, that not all electrical systems are similar, indeed
even alike, and that they are endowed by their Creators with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Wiring, Alternators, Regulators and Zap Stops. That to secure these rights, connectors are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the crimping tool - That whenever a loose connection becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Connections, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its power in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness, and
freedom from Shorepower.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Charging Systems long established by yacht manufacturers should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, that to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and dimmed lights and stereo failures evinces a design to reduce them, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such anachronisms, and to provide new Regulators for their future security.

We, therefore, the representatives of the Seeking United Yachtsmen for Consistent Electrons, do, in the name of the good People of Catalina 34s, solemnly publish and declare, That these SUYCEs are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent of Shorepower. We mutually pledge to each other our Rum, our Wires and our Sacred
Free Time.

"John Hancock"

[Mark Elkin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Gardner, 1988, #695, Seventh Heaven:
Mark,
....
Seeing how tight it is, what size engine starter battery do you use?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[John, I just got back from 2 weeks of cruising in the Carib.  Sorry for the delayed reply.]

I used a "Group 27" sized starting battery.

Mark Elkin
Yorkshire Rose, #133

[Kyle Ewing]

After reading what others have said here and other sources including Nigel Calder's book, I've modified my plans.  I'm sticking with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thought, especially since this is a new boat to me.  Comments are appreciated.

Phase I
1.  Replace batteries with 4 Trojan T105s in two banks.  This'll give me two banks of 220 amps each.  Previously, the boat had 3 group 24 batteries.

2.  Add fuses to the batteries.

3.  Replace original battery charger with a Statpower 40+.  I've read enough stories about the Pro Mariner charger that I don't want to risk destroying my new batteries.

4.  Regarding the battery cables, if all connections are good, I shouldn't have any problems.  I am considering adding an additional ground cable as it will reduce the overall resistance of the circuit and is pretty simple to do.  Worse case:  I'll have to switch the battery switch to "both" to start when the engine is hot.

5.  The has the original wiring harness so I'll be updating that as is strongly recommended here.


Phase II
1.  Add a dedicated starting battery.  This'll allow me to use all 4 batteries in one bank (increasing overall battery life and capacity).

2.  Upgrade alternator (if I find the stock alternator doesn't meet my needs).

3.  Add parallel battery cable runs (if needed).

Anyone see any flaws with my plans?

Kyle Ewing
Donnybrook, #1010
Belmont Harbor, Chicago

[Stu Jackson]

Kyle

Sounds good.  I agree with Ron's idea of simply adding to the negatives, rather than perhaps waiting til Phase II for the paralleling.

Why not put the starting battery in now while you're at it?  Then you won't have to run and/or extend new battery switch cables later.

As an associated note:  unless you have some kind of voltage regulator on your stock alternator, you may (will definitely?) end up being "unhappy" with its performance, because it just won't be much.  You purchased the statpower charger, so you understand "proper" charging.  The stock alternator with no regulation will be just like a ferroresonant old charger, even worse.

Either go for the BIG house bank and the starting battery now to reduce the immediate dependence on the alternator, or consider what to do about the alternator.  You could take it down to an alternator shop and have them modify it to wire into a smart regulator, or just bite the bullet and go for the 75 amp alternator and smart regulator now in Phase I.  $ is usually an issue, your call.  

A lot of this choice also has to do with how you will use the boat.  If you're at marinas at Phase I, you'll do just fine.  Phase II kicks in the "let's get away from it all" mode.

Good research, good luck, fair winds.

[Kyle Ewing]

I'm sizing the fuses for the system.  The only reference to battery fuses I found was related to an inverter installation.  How large a fuse do I need for a 220 amp battery bank that will also be starting the engine?  I'm thinking 150 amps.  Will a breaker function as well?  

I posted the following question on Torresen Marine's page (an excellent source of diesel information if anyone isn't familiar with it) with the reply I received.  Their answer is a lot less than I was expecting.

Post:
"I'll be adding circuit protection to the batteries of my 1990 C34 with Universal M25XP. I have two 220 amp battery banks. To help me size the fuse, how much current can I expect to draw, both under normal conditions and hard starting? I'm looking at BlueSea Megafuse or BlueSea 7100 Series breakers, between 100 and 150 amp.

"Trip current depends on time so I'm planning on a maximum of 10 seconds of continuous starting. Is 5 seconds a better time? What have other people used to fuse their batteries? Do fuses and circuit breakers work equally well protecting a circuit including a starter motor?"

The reply I received was:
"From the M25 XP serivce manual

Output 70°-80° 46 amps
Draw 3.2 - 3.6 amps
Winding Resistance 4.1-4.7 ohm "

[Gary Wilson]

Regarding the question of fuse size for the battery wiring, I chose 150 amp ANL fuses for both the house and starter battery circuits.  They are smaller than the capacity of the circuits, but larger than any anticipated load.  The specification page (marketing brochure) for the Universal 25 says the starter draws 53 amps max.  Our inverter is only 600 watts, so we won't have any very high loads on the house bank.

I just finished, yesterday, upgrading my battery cables to 1/0 and 2/0 size.  I  had originally planned #1 guage, but my favorite little battery store only had the larger sizes, so I went with them.  This promises to be one of the best upgrades I have done.  There is a noticeable difference in things like the speed of the water pump.