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Author Topic: Rudder Play Fix options  (Read 218 times)

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MarcZ

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Rudder Play Fix options
« on: November 21, 2021, 06:51:00 PM »

I have walk thru 1.5 with rudder play – bottom of the rudder moves about ¼ inch and I can feel it while sailing. “Play” appears to be in the bottom tube
I’m aware of 2 possible fixes – epoxy and mylar film
I almost decided to go with epoxy but My quadrant has at least 4 thru bolts “corrosion welded” to aluminum quadrant and did not budge when encouraged with 12 inch driver. (I applied some pb blaster but I did not have time for longer soak)
I’m going to give it another try next weekend possibly with some heat applied and an impact wrench possibly beaker bar. I would applicate feedback from anyone with experience in this area.
My big concern is snapping these bolts and opening whole fresh can of worms.

Above makes me reconsider mylar shim approach.
Catalina instructions do not mention how to insert mylar strips into the rudder tube past the stuffing box packing?
 Should I attempt to shim it from the bottom instead?
2 inch strips or wider?
What is the longevity of this approach?
Again any tips and suggestions from successful shimming operations are welcome.
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93 C34 Mk 1.5 #1258 TR WK M35
Upper Chesapeake

Jon W

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2021, 07:48:19 PM »

regarding the corroded bolts - If you have access to the nuts, a nut splitter tool is a good option. Breaks the nut so it easily comes off without damage to surroundings. Tap out the old bolt and replace with new bolt/washer/nut. Use Tef-gel on the new bolt threads to avoid future problems.
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Jon W.
s/v Della Jean
Hull #493, 1987 MK 1, M25XP, Std Rig
San Diego, Ca

MarcZ

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2021, 07:55:31 PM »

There is nothing to split or cut off.  Bolts go into the threaded holes in the quadrant itself.
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93 C34 Mk 1.5 #1258 TR WK M35
Upper Chesapeake

Jon W

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2021, 08:44:01 PM »

My mistake. In your text you referred to “4 thru bolts”, which to me means an unthreaded hole with a bolt, washer, and nut.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 09:05:49 PM by Jon W »
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Jon W.
s/v Della Jean
Hull #493, 1987 MK 1, M25XP, Std Rig
San Diego, Ca

KWKloeber

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2021, 11:41:32 PM »

There is nothing to split or cut off.  Bolts go into the threaded holes in the quadrant itself.

Which bolts are you referring to - not holding the “radial wheel” to the rudder stock?  Are you referring to bolts that hold the two halves of the RW together?

Note that the Mylar fix was meant to go under the tiller cap (my-I) not under the stuffing box. It’s a very temporary fix (depending of course how you use the boat.  It’s like asking how long does a tank of diesel last?)

I did the resin/embedded graphite re-bearing surface in the tube that worked very well.  A C30 owner devised/installed an actual bearing at the bottom of the tube. I can connect you with that info if you care to investigate that route.

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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Noah

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2021, 12:19:43 AM »

LogoFreak created a new bering for his. There may be something to assist you in this thread?
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10763.msg85685.html#msg85685
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MarcZ

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2021, 04:13:40 AM »

When looking closer at LogoFreaks quadrant picture I see what appears to be an evidence of drilling out stuck stainless bolts in the aft half - interesting
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93 C34 Mk 1.5 #1258 TR WK M35
Upper Chesapeake

MarcZ

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2021, 05:17:15 AM »

Ken,

Problem is with 4 larger Bolts that hold quadrant together

Boat is used almost every weekend during the season on Chesapeake Bay 1 or 2 longer trips if that is narrowing it down - I'm definitely not interested in temporary solution if "temporary" is less then 8y of my type of use.

Resin with graphite was my initial choice and stuck quadrant made me look again at other options .


« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 03:27:06 PM by MarcZ »
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93 C34 Mk 1.5 #1258 TR WK M35
Upper Chesapeake

Bob M

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2021, 08:38:15 AM »

Hello MarkZ,

I did this job this past spring using the Epoxy/Graphite method with West System product.  Worked great for me and after this first season came out of the water as tight as when the job was finished.  My experience, as it relates to fastener removal, was quite a bit different.  I did not struggle to remove anything except for the emergency tiller cap (it was Aluminum and I had to split it).  For what it is worth, I used PB blaster, let it sit over night and then a small impact driver (Dewalt 1/4").  I used a few short bursts and watched the socket to make sure it was moving (want to get that vibration to break the corrosion and unload the torque in the joint).

Two tools that were not available when I was learning how to "turn a wrench" were the Cordless Impact driver and Oscillating Multi Tool.  They have provided options to tackle many jobs I imagined would go south rather quickly if something broke.  Hope this helps.

FYI, I have a Mk1 (1989) so I am sure that there are some differences but it looks like the layout of the rudder system is similar enough.

Good luck.
Bob
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KWKloeber

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2021, 08:59:32 AM »

Marc

I thought my radial wheel had nutted thru bolts when I did my rudder tube fix but regardless they easily came out or loosened up. You might be looking at snapping them and getting them drilled out if all else fails and replacing with thru bolts. You might talk to Edson.
If nothing moves after repeated soaking and gentle heat and an impact driver, I’d be thinking about gingerly drilling an access hole in to the edge of the bolt so that I could get penetrant into where it needs to go.  If nothing else worked I’d have nothing to lose trying that.

I had posted reviews of different corrosion penetrant tests on the forum a few yrs back
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10041.msg76901.html#msg76901
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

mdidomenico

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2021, 04:58:40 AM »

for what it's worth, i've never had success with pbblaster.  and since i've stripped my boat down to the hull, so i've had to free plenty of stainless bolts.  the only things that've worked for me

1 nut splitter
2 impact gun
3 heat
4 drilling

if it's a chunky bolt with a nut i'll split the nut and pull/hammer the bolt out.  if it's not a thru bolt, an impact driver usually frees it or snaps the head, in which case i end up drilling the bolt out anyway

heat seems to be the least damaging with varied actual success.  if i have a lot of room i'll use a blow torch to heat the bolt/screw.  if less room you can get pencil tips for the blow torch, makes all the difference. 

otherwise if you have a heavy duty (100w+) soldering iron, you can hold it directly on the bolt/screw.  takes awhile though, but does work sometimes and if there's a lot of wood around the fastener sometimes the safest/least damaging.  there's a fancy induction bolt heater that mechanics use that i envy, but the $1k price tag was not.

drilling is the fall back, which i've sadly done a lot.  just get a center punch and good set of cobalt drill bits, doesn't take too long

the only thing pbblaster ever did for me was make my hands and the surrounding environment stink

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Noah

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2021, 08:27:17 AM »

A controlled/targeted soaking in Kroil penetrating oil has worked for me in the past. Just keep it away from seals, such as the rear transmission seal, etc.
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1990 hull #1014, San Diego, CA,  Fin Keel,
Standard Rig

Jim Hardesty

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2021, 04:43:46 PM »

Quote
or what it's worth, i've never had success with pbblaster.  and since i've stripped my boat down to the hull, so i've had to free plenty of stainless bolts.  the only things that've worked for me

1 nut splitter
2 impact gun
3 heat
4 drilling

For the record I've had success with both pbblaster and my favorite Kroil.  Adding to the list of last resort I use a dremel tool with the abrasive cut-off wheel when space permits.
Jim
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Jim Hardesty
2001 MKII hull #1570 M35BC  "Shamrock"
sailing Lake Erie
from Commodore Perry Yacht Club
Erie, PA

LogoFreak

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Re: Rudder Play Fix options
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2021, 08:02:56 PM »

Just saw this thread, if I had that much play in the bottom I would create a bearing just like I did for the top. Slightly more complicated as you’d have to make a tool to bore out the rudder tube to accept a bearing but it’s not too complicated. Upside is you’d have a serviceable part afterwards and it would only take a few minutes to replace if it wore out again.
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Antoni - Vancouver BC
1992 Catalina 34 Tall rig fin keel mk 1.5 “Polonaise”
Hull number 1179
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