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Author Topic: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines  (Read 618 times)

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KWKloeber

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2021, 03:08:02 PM »

Au contraire’ mon ami Stu.

I even said do it if you want, but do it knowing all the facts (which every time anyone  “pushes” the mod y’all fail to disclose (ESPECIALLY to a new boat owner.). There’s nothing in my disclosure that is non factual.
I even suggested a better (IMO) option than a high power 150 amp solenoid.

One could say that pushing that mod over and over and over is unnecessary. And if it’s in the 101 or critical upgrades, why continue to mention the mod - isn’t that the pat answer, “read the critical upgrades”? LOL. 

I see, reminders are unnecessary when you see things differently, but ok when you agree (and the product manufacturer disagrees with you.). RTFM only applies when someone WANTS it to apply, I suppose.

All pertinent facts are important to boaters (ESPECIALLY new owners) not just SOME facts. 
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

KWKloeber

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2021, 09:14:33 PM »

Just so it's clear that this does not have to do with my opinion of the glow plugs, but is based on fact:

From: Info
Sent: February 13, 2017
Subject: RE: NGK Y-103V glow plug question

Hello,
Thank you for your inquiry.  It will definitely damage the glow plug by putting direct battery voltage to it. There is a resistor in the controller box so the glow plug only receives 10.5V. [***]

NGK Spark Plugs, (USA) Inc.|


*** NGK was referring to our engine being in a kubota tractor (i.e., battery ~12.5 voltage, not up to 14+ volts.)

Another Pro that Stu doesn't mention is that the mod eliminates high current thru a poor preheat switch.  The answer to that if one doesn't want the mod is to install a proper switch (30 amp Cole Hersee not a 10a or 15a switch.)

Anyone can conjure up scenarios to support about anything - I had a fellow C-30 owner who had a burned-out "ford" solenoid (luckily it wasn't critical but he "could have been" in a situation like Stu had or worse.)
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Jon W

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2021, 09:19:51 PM »

Do you have a part number for the 30A Cole Hersee switch?
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Jon W.
s/v Della Jean
Hull #493, 1987 MK 1, M25XP, Std Rig
San Diego, Ca

KWKloeber

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2021, 10:47:18 PM »

Jon

Model #:M-626 BP
35a rated momentary contact switch.

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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Catalina007

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2021, 05:04:10 AM »

A very dramatic story, but there was virtually zero chance any of those racing boats would have hit you.
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Jon W

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2021, 11:44:13 AM »

Thanks Ken.
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Jon W.
s/v Della Jean
Hull #493, 1987 MK 1, M25XP, Std Rig
San Diego, Ca

Ron Hill

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2021, 12:43:13 PM »

Guys : I've said it before.   

There is many a time that in the middle of the night in an anchorage - wind came up - boats started to drag anchor - and I could immediately start my engine!!
That Ford Truck Solenoid Mod. paid for its self  !!!!!!   :D

A thought
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Catalina007

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2021, 05:17:41 AM »

Have to agree with Ken. With a properly working and maintained starting system there is no reason to add another solenoid.
A few seconds difference between the results? Come on Man! On cold days my engine starts with max 15 seconds pre heat   
If you have dragged anchor 'many a time in the middle of the night' you more likely need to invest in ground tackle or
review anchoring procedures. No matter how many times you have said it.

 
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KWKloeber

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2021, 09:24:41 AM »

>>>If you have dragged anchor 'many a time in the middle of the night'<<<

C,

With Ron’s experience I ass/u/me he meant other boats dragging anchor, and yes, sure I’d want to get going asap also. But a difference of say, 10 seconds is the difference between having your shorts zipped up, or… well, use your imagination.
It’ a know fact that 10 seconds is valuable “reflection/evaluation time” to decide on the best action rather than jumping into a situation immediately.  See, as I said, anyone can pretty much conjure up justification/scenarios to “promote” or “dis” whatever they care to.  There’s no 100-percents; there’s most usually gray areas.

Look, I’ll say and highlight this again - I am not saying “don’t do it.”  YBYC.  I’ve even posted on the wiki how (IMO) to improve the mod and where/how to find those parts. 

BUT, as with anything on a boat, understand all the ramifications and balance them.
The pushers of the mod never (that I recall?) disclose that it’s contrary to manufacture’s recommendations, flys in the face of KISS on a boat engine and wiring, and (although always sexy to install “more stuff”) it is unnecessary.  How many times have we been reminded that (paraphrasing here) ‘There’s X thousand Catalinas out there that have (insert appropriate phrase here) and they (insert sail; start; lasted; other; here) just as the manufacturer built them.’

The key is, no one prefers to hear negatives about THEIR fix or THEIR recommendation, so to enumerate downsides and potential issues is not informing members, it’s “dissing.”   Or more often it’s “You don’t know our (34 foot) boats so you don’t know what you’re stating (or occasionally asking,) so stay in you seat and keep your opinion to yourself unless teach calls on you’ (unless of course I’m agreeing with them.)  LOL. That’s ok, it rolls off my back just like it rolls off their back if I point out pesky facts about something. NOT.

Further non-dissing thought:  no equipment is 100% fail safe. So anytime a critical item is installed think about, if it fails what do I do?
If you’re not going to use what I suggest (10 second, no tool replacing it) then make sure to use #10 wire to the S terminal of  the solenoid and hang a #10 wire with clips on the ends right there so you can bypass the solenoid in a matter of seconds. That will guarantee you’ll never need it.  That’s for the old engines- if it’s a B-wired engine (Westerbeke’s “better idea”) you’re pretty much screwed if the solenoid fails because it performs more than one function.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

KWKloeber

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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Ron Hill

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2021, 01:59:33 PM »

Cat 007 : "If you have dragged anchor 'many a time in the middle of the night' you more likely need to invest in ground tackle or
review anchoring procedures." ??????

I don't drag anchor and don't know what your experience is, but here's mine.  I've sailed the Chesapeake and the east coast for over 30 years.  During that time I have averaged 100 overnights per year on my C34.  We usually anchor 6 nights and a marina the 7th (dump trash, pump out, refuel, restock, etc).  That's a lot of anchorings!!  I have NEVER put out a "lunch hook"  I sink that baby (Bruce 35) and always start with 50 ft of chain. 

I can see that you don't know what the Ford Solenoid Mod does so let me explain it to you. 
The way Catalina wired our C34s is to put the glow plugs on a separate switch (1986 & 1987) or incorporate it in a 3 way key switch (1988 and subsequent production). 

So the amps necessary to heat the glow plugs come from the battery compartment thru the Battery Selector switch to the key switch and then back to the glow plugs.  WHAT is that distance??  30 to 40 ft ??  (that's quite a run!!) This is only for the M25XP engine.
 
What the solenoid mod. does is simply open up a circuit from the starter solenoid, around the back of the engine to the aft glow plug!  A distance of about 3 ft.!!!!!!  If you want to include the distance from the battery compartment to the starter solenoid add another 7 ft. ?

I purposely haven't mentioned wire gage, but you can see why it only takes a few seconds for the necessary amps to travel that much shorter distance.

I've always thought that it was one of the smarter, easy to do, Mods on the M25/M25XP engine!   :clap

Let me tell you that waking up in the middle of the night to the smell of diesel exhaust and the roar of engines is somewhere between scary and terrifying.  You feel helpless with the power boat spot lights flashing about and you immediately start your engine as the ONLY thing you can do beside fend off with your boat hook.  Hope that you NEVER have to be in that situation!!
 
A few thoughts



 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 02:38:53 PM by Ron Hill »
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KWKloeber

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2021, 04:32:14 PM »

Ron

It’s exactly the same wiring harness and path as 007’s boat and every non-B engine in a C30.  In other words he knows exactly what the path is and the unnecessary mod does.

And the precise path is from the starter solenoid B terminal, thru the harness and back to plug #3.  The amps (and V loss) thru the battery cable to the B terminal and back to the battery (negative cable) is irrelevant.

What gets lost in the smoke and dust raised is, for those who want the mod (Their Boat Their Choice) it boils down to one absolute simple fact:  10 or 20 seconds is more important than heeding the manufacturer’s warning and commonsense boat wiring to KISS. 
It’s that simple, no fluff, no supportive/justifying scenarios or obfuscation either pros or cons is needed.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Catalina007

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2021, 08:37:12 AM »

Cat 007 : "If you have dragged anchor 'many a time in the middle of the night' you more likely need to invest in ground tackle or
review anchoring procedures." ??????

I don't drag anchor and don't know what your experience is, but here's mine.  I've sailed the Chesapeake and the east coast for over 30 years.  During that time I have averaged 100 overnights per year on my C34.  We usually anchor 6 nights and a marina the 7th (dump trash, pump out, refuel, restock, etc).  That's a lot of anchorings!!  I have NEVER put out a "lunch hook"  I sink that baby (Bruce 35) and always start with 50 ft of chain. 

I can see that you don't know what the Ford Solenoid Mod does so let me explain it to you. 
The way Catalina wired our C34s is to put the glow plugs on a separate switch (1986 & 1987) or incorporate it in a 3 way key switch (1988 and subsequent production). 

So the amps necessary to heat the glow plugs come from the battery compartment thru the Battery Selector switch to the key switch and then back to the glow plugs.  WHAT is that distance??  30 to 40 ft ??  (that's quite a run!!) This is only for the M25XP engine.
 
What the solenoid mod. does is simply open up a circuit from the starter solenoid, around the back of the engine to the aft glow plug!  A distance of about 3 ft.!!!!!!  If you want to include the distance from the battery compartment to the starter solenoid add another 7 ft. ?

I purposely haven't mentioned wire gage, but you can see why it only takes a few seconds for the necessary amps to travel that much shorter distance.

I've always thought that it was one of the smarter, easy to do, Mods on the M25/M25XP engine!   :clap

Let me tell you that waking up in the middle of the night to the smell of diesel exhaust and the roar of engines is somewhere between scary and terrifying.  You feel helpless with the power boat spot lights flashing about and you immediately start your engine as the ONLY thing you can do beside fend off with your boat hook.  Hope that you NEVER have to be in that situation!!
 
A few thoughts
 
I can only add that your experience and time on boats sounds like about 2/3 of mine :)   
Maybe one time (which I can't  even recall)  I had to worry that 20 seconds of time difference to start an engine might have made
me pucker a little bit. And in 100,000 miles racing Ive never personally seen a racing boat hit a well seen boat at anchor.
That doesnt make you a bad person :)   To each his own. Risk tolerance is subjective
 
 
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glennd3

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Glenn Davis
Knot Yet
1990 Catalina 34 Mk 1.5
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Patapsco River
Chesapeake Bay Maryland

Ron Hill

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Re: Model/Make Glo Plugs for our engines
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2021, 03:26:24 PM »

 All : As Stu has mentioned Many times - "Your boat Your Choice"

A racer that anchors - interesting!!  Must be alot of anchoring in that 100,000 miles !!!

A thought
« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 02:49:09 PM by Ron Hill »
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