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Author Topic: Motor mounts, M-35  (Read 700 times)

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WBev

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Motor mounts, M-35
« on: September 24, 2021, 03:19:40 PM »

I have read everything I can find about motor mounts for the M-35, and didn't find any posts of someone here replacing them.  So, I invite suggestions. 
 
The same part was used/listed for the M-25XP and several other Universal engines, down to the M-12 (which we had on our Pearson 27-2).  The weight difference is about 30lbs from M-35 (335lbs, 30 hp, 4cyl)  to M-25XP (285lbs,  23 hp, 3 cyl), and M-12 (175lb, 10 hp, 2 cyl), plus transmission. The part has a base with 4" between slots to mount, and a 5/8" stud to tie to the engine bracket.  So, the same isolator is on various engines.

Weserbeke part 300974 (now) and aftermarkets with the same dimensions, and appearance are vastly different prices.  WB wants $193.90 each.  Toad is a little less for the same part.  Western Branch Diesel doesn't have any, and again said WB's computers are down so no price/availability info.   Cat.Direct has one at $161.80, and is an aftermarket of unknown manufacture.  They explained it works on the M-25XP, and are told the bolt pattern is the key. Toad sells one by Bushings, Inc., DF2205-2 for a mere $56.28. 
On the other hand, Vetus.  They confuse me.  Many posts on putting the KSteun75 or 50 on the M-25XP engines.  Vetus info puts the weight limit at 165# for the K75, and 220# for the K100, which is too low for the M-25XP and the M-35, unless the limit is per isolator.   It appears the hp rating is fine for these engines by their specs.  The mounts don't look anything like the OEM, and I understand those who have used them found the 1/16" difference in bolt mount OK.  The price is about $70.  I have called Vetus US and await a call back to discuss.

Has anyone experience with the M-35 isolators, the Bushings, Inc or the Catalina Direct units?  Anyone put the Vetus on their M-35?  Am I missing something on the weight limits?   I really don't want to do this twice, but don't want to pay 3x the price if I can reasonably avoid it.  $56.28 v. 193.90 is the maximum $ difference, per isolator. 

Thank you for any insights, again.
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Wobegon II
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KWKloeber

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2021, 05:31:40 PM »

Bill

The original isolators on the C30 XP were the DFs. I would expect they are the same used on the 34 engines.
The weights are per isolator- the manufacturer does not know whether the particular application would have 3, 4, or 6 isolators.

The K75 is the common wisdom for the XP, etc. so if the weight is within the range thatís the way to go.
The isolators that WB used on B engines are completely different and problematic replacing w/a non-Wb due to the spacing. I havenít found who supplies those isolators to Wb but theyíre excellent.
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WBev

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2021, 08:54:14 AM »

Thank you, Ken.  I am going to call Vetus again on Monday to see what they say.  The K75's at four of them are well within the weight range.  The DF's look identical to the Universal ones on there, and to the CD offering. So, that will be my fall back.
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Wobegon II
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KWKloeber

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2021, 11:14:23 AM »

Thank you, Ken.  I am going to call Vetus again on Monday to see what they say.  The K75's at four of them are well within the weight range.  The DF's look identical to the Universal ones on there, and to the CD offering. So, that will be my fall back.

What are you anticipating Vetus to say, ďNo, donít buy our isolators, install the DFsĒ? 
Thereís plenty info in the archives that say the K75s are the way to go.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

WBev

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2021, 07:13:31 AM »

Ken, my questions have to do with, given the weight and HP difference of the engines (the consensus here pretty much refers to the lighter and less HP M-25XP), and considering that difference, which of the isolators they recommend between K75, K80 and K100.     The 75 v 80 isolators spec very similarly, with the 80 being slightly stiffer (their chart labels it as "hardness").  These two have the same weight max and dimensional specs.   I expect the K100 will be too stiff. 
This question arises because I read several posts regarding the K50 being too soft for the M-25XP, and recommendations to use the K75.  There is a bigger difference between the 50 & 75, but not much between the 75 and the 80.  (I have not looked around for any retailers selling the 80, but did not see it on two websites I looked at.) 

I may be over-complicating this, but I do not want to do this twice.
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Ron Hill

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2021, 09:23:54 AM »

Bill : When I finally got the Vetus mounts for my M25XP engine, I found that the K50 were too soft in the REAR mounts. The K50s in the rear allowed the drive shaft to just touch (buzz - a mild tickity tickity) against the packing gland tube when the engine was idling - not when the engine was at higher than idle rpm!!   After I changed to the K75s in the rear the engine was perfect.  Then (for simplicity) I just recommended the K75s all the way around. 

If I had your engine I'd go for all K75s - which I'm sure will be OK.

A few thoughts
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 09:32:47 AM by Ron Hill »
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KWKloeber

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2021, 10:29:48 AM »

Interesting how the 3-cyl M-30 was 425 lbs and the M-35 is 335 lbs.  Wait. Huh?

I don't know that the 80s are (readily) available in the US of A.  My distributor shows the K75 in stock but K80s not even listed as available.  But I might be able to special order.

Will be interesting to hear what Vetus says but here's my take.
On the 35, the K75s are ok.  If you want a titch more peace of mind K75s on the front, K80s on the rear. 
With the higher Shore Hardness of the K80, you'd get less movement (i.e., Ron's issue w/ the K50s in the rear) but more vibration transferred to the stringers.  If that doesn't bother you, with the relatively little difference between them the K80s might provide a titch more service life (like 3 to 5 yrs.)

   
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
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Breakin Away

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2021, 10:46:27 PM »

I'm looking for a new set of engine mounts for my M35B. My mechanic says that the old ones are too soft and worn out. The engine is moving to the side when put in gear, causing metal-to-metal contact between shaft and stuffing box. Note that the B-series mounts are totally different from non-B-series mounts. The Westerbeke service manual shows the part number is 040510:

https://www.westerbeke.com/Product/ISOLATOR/040510

There is some discussion of these M35B mounts on another old thread: https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5187.msg31839.html#msg31839

Apparently it is difficult to find alternate designs that match the 5" spacing of the lag bolts, and drilling new holes would probably require removing the engine.

The price for genuine Westerbeke replacement is showing up almost everywhere at $279.70 per mount. There is a place in Annapolis that shows it online at $255.98, though I have not verified whether they have them in stock and/or whether their price is obsolete. This will be painful to buy 4!

I cannot find a comparable design on the Vetus website. I have no idea who might make these mounts for Westerbeke. Do you guys have any suggestions?
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KWKloeber

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2021, 02:08:29 AM »

Iíve searched on and off for 3-4 years trying to locate those isolators. No joy.
Iíll ask my Ex-Westerbeke distributor if he knows the mfgr, but I doubt he does.

I donít see why a shop couldnít weld a thin plate under the K75 or K100 isolators and redrill at 120mm instead of the 100mm.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Breakin Away

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2021, 09:35:55 AM »

Iíve searched on and off for 3-4 years trying to locate those isolators. No joy.
Iíll ask my Ex-Westerbeke distributor if he knows the mfgr, but I doubt he does.

I donít see why a shop couldnít weld a thin plate under the K75 or K100 isolators and redrill at 120mm instead of the 100mm.
Thanks, Ken. I'm really reluctant to experiment with custom modifications for something that undergoes so much stress and can cause so much damage if it isn't the right thing.

By coincidence, I have to be in Annapolis tomorrow morning (about 2.5 hours away from home) and could swing by and purchase the four Westerbeke mounts for about $100 less than everyone else is selling them for, so if you can come up a non-Westerbeke source for the exact same thing before that, I'll hold off.
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2001 MkII Breakin' Away, #1535, TR/WK, M35BC, Mantus 35# (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

KWKloeber

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2021, 10:30:31 AM »

I sent an email but I donít know if they are closed tomorrow for the holiday. Iíll post as soon as I hear.

As far as experimenting, Iím not sure which you refer to but at least I wouldnít consider neither Vetus nor welding experimenting. Theyíre both proven and been around and have worked for at least a few months now.   Would welding be more or less resilient and long lasting than the rubber that sits between the stringer and the engine?

Westerbeke isolators are absolute, no question, unadulterated raping of the customer when the should be under $100. Iíll NEVER buy them!
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Breakin Away

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2021, 11:47:23 AM »

I sent an email but I donít know if they are closed tomorrow for the holiday. Iíll post as soon as I hear.

As far as experimenting, Iím not sure which you refer to but at least I wouldnít consider neither Vetus nor welding experimenting. Theyíre both proven and been around and have worked for at least a few months now.   Would welding be more or less resilient and long lasting than the rubber that sits between the stringer and the engine?

Westerbeke isolators are absolute, no question, unadulterated raping of the customer when the should be under $100. Iíll NEVER buy them!
Thanks for checking. I had forgotten about the holiday, since no company that I've worked for over the past 35 years has ever observed it. But now that you mention it, the Annapolis Powerboat/Sailboat shows bracket the holiday, and so the place I was going to visit might actually be closed. I'll have to check the exhibitor list. All this means I might just have to delay and eventually do mail order.

As far as the "experimental" nature of this, the below question about flex couplings, which was apparently never answered, highlights that swapping this part out on a B-series engine may not be as simple as expected. Have any of your clients, or anyone else here (or maybe on the C36 forum), ever actually done this proposed Vetus swap-out with the welded plate modification on a M35B, M40B, or M50B? Exactly which model of Vetus isolator was used? Until all of these questions are answered, I'll have to consider this whole thing as "experimental", and not sure I want to be the guinea pig. It is not apparent to me that John Langford or anyone else has actually done this with a non-Westerbeke part.
Here is information that won't make Canadian Mk II owners very happy. Westerbeke Canada wants $297.29 for each engine mount for the M35B. And I was trying to get used to the American price of $182! (since increased to US $280 as of Oct 2021)

It's a lovely engine but being at the mercy of Westerbeke is painful. There has got to be another mount out there that we can substitute. I went to the site recommended by Roc and it does have a lot of mounts. But sorting out which mount would be a good substitute is a problem.

Ron, did you have a view on the question of whether the Vetus K75 requires that then engine have a flex coupling?
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KWKloeber

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2021, 01:29:50 PM »

Just update reply #7, my stocking distributor verified that the K80s are not available, except by special order (that currently could take several months to manufacture.)

My recommendation based on additional weight for a 4 cylinder are K100 on the rear and K75 on the front.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Ron Hill

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2021, 02:36:28 PM »

Guys : I don't believe that any engine mounts I've seen require a flexible coupling!??! 

I've just always had a flex-coupling because I'm lazy and want my engine/drive shaft to stay in alignment!!  For a few bucks - why NOT???   :thumb:

A few thoughts 
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Breakin Away

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Re: Motor mounts, M-35
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2021, 06:19:29 PM »

It looks like Bushings has a very wide variety of engine mounts:

https://www.bushingsinc.com/119-2/

Many of them are 5" hole spacing, but they are all for larger, heavier motors. The ones for motors like the M35B are typically 4" hole spacing. I don't know whether they have any customization capabilities, but it would be nice if they could mix&match some parts to come up with a 5" hole spacing with the right hardness of rubber and stud spec. to work with the 352 lb. M35B.  I think I'll give them a call and see what capabilities they have to come up with something like a DF-2205-2 with a larger base plate with 5" hole spacing. With their "competition" pricing their parts at $280 each, it would seem that they have a lot of potential profit margin with this design.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 07:31:55 PM by Breakin Away »
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