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Author Topic: ? Sudden overheating?  (Read 1068 times)

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WBev

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2021, 06:55:00 AM »

Update:  I found Universal parts dealers in my region devoid of parts, and Kubota not much better.  Kumar did not answer their phone, and their website wouldn't take orders.  Their part for the M-35 was $35 on their site.  Amazon had the same for $105 + 48 for two day shipping.  Part came, matched my dead one and last night I drove down to the boat and installed.  I used a syringe to fill the pump chamber with Prestone water pump lube per Ron Hill, and filled the hot water heater hose, put my finger over it and guided it to the pump.  Lost very little fluid.  Topped of the chamber and started it up.  Worked fine.  No overheating, no issues.

Until, after running it for a second time at the dock at 165 degrees for 20 minutes.  Pump fine.  Buttoning up, doing the last search and saw my port side front engine bracket had sheared clean off where the gusset joins the flat.  Might have happened any time prior as the engine was being held up by the remaining three brackets and mounts. 

Searched this site, and saw a service bulletin for M25XP and M35C, from 5/1994.  Well, I have a M-35.  No A, B or C about it on the plate.  Owners posted about their M-35A's from the same vintage as my boat.  I took a shot in the dark and called Westerbeke customer service.  Of course, Mr. Joe Joyce is not there anymore.  I was put to Bob Massanti (phonetic) voice mail and have left a message.  The lady in service, when asked what my call was about, said "your kidding."  So we will see where this goes.   

Toad lists what might be this part for about $800 each.  C'mon, they can't be serious can they?
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Wobegon II
1992 C-34 MK 1.5
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Magothy River, MD

KWKloeber

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2021, 09:48:46 AM »

Iím not saying this will happen with your case but just for info, that when I first experienced an airlock (M-25) and had no clue what was going on (nor did the Catalina dealer Ďdiesel mechanicí) the overheating occurred ONLY when pushing the engine, not running it in the slip.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
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WBev

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2021, 11:27:19 AM »

As usual, thank you Ken.  I appreciate your patience. 
As to my test run, the first was a few minutes to confirm no leaks, in nuetral.  The second was in gear after re-tightening the belt and ran in forward for 10 minutes after hitting 165 degrees.  Shut down, check for leaks at the pump and hose connections.  The last time,
I ran it and spent 20 minutes in forward gear at 1600 rpms with the temp gauge at 165.  Of course, there was the warm up to each of run 2 & 3, but the thermostat was not open until hitting operating temp. 
I have a deep slip, but am sure the prop was making a big mess in the water.
I truly hope that is load enough.  I will keep the ethylene glycol anti-freeze on board just in case.
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Wobegon II
1992 C-34 MK 1.5
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Magothy River, MD

Stu Jackson

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2021, 03:47:14 PM »

Iím not saying this will happen with your case but just for info, that when I first experienced an airlock (M-25) and had no clue what was going on (nor did the Catalina dealer Ďdiesel mechanicí) the overheating occurred ONLY when pushing the engine, not running it in the slip.

I have an M25, too.  When I started reading the C34 tech notes in all the back issues of Mainsheet magazine from 1987 (that my PO kindly saved and gave to me in 1998), one of the first things that caught my attention was overheating.  While the text of this early tech note wasn't very helpful on the reasons for it (other than an air bubble in the line - nothing as detailed as what we've discussed and learned since, like "Burping"), it did clearly explain how to deal with it - pre-2000s solutions, was to open the petcock on the top of the engine and rev the puppy up high to spurt the air out.  Yup, an inelegant solution.  The reality was it worked for me for a half dozen years until we got better input and options.

This has also been discussed in great detail in a very recent thread:

https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11126.0.html

My experience, too, is if you have a serious air bubble, it doesn't matter load or no load.  My engine would heat up fast even at idle.  Always.  Not saying other people don't have different experiences, but from an engineering point of view:  air = overheat.

Like the linked thread shows, though, tiny air left means things are fine and you can do things to get rid of all the air after the big bubble is gone.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 03:51:24 PM by Stu Jackson »
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KWKloeber

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2021, 06:29:29 PM »

Iím not saying this will happen with your case but just for info, that when I first experienced an airlock (M-25) and had no clue what was going on (nor did the Catalina dealer Ďdiesel mechanicí) the overheating occurred ONLY when pushing the engine, not running it in the slip.

I have an M25, too.  When I started reading the C34 tech notes in all the back issues of Mainsheet magazine from 1987 (that my PO kindly saved and gave to me in 1998), one of the first things that caught my attention was overheating.  While the text of this early tech note wasn't very helpful on the reasons for it (other than an air bubble in the line - nothing as detailed as what we've discussed and learned since, like "Burping"), it did clearly explain how to deal with it - pre-2000s solutions, was to open the petcock on the top of the engine and rev the puppy up high to spurt the air out.  Yup, an inelegant solution.  The reality was it worked for me for a half dozen years until we got better input and options.

This has also been discussed in great detail in a very recent thread:

https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11126.0.html

My experience, too, is if you have a serious air bubble, it doesn't matter load or no load.  My engine would heat up fast even at idle.  Always.  Not saying other people don't have different experiences, but from an engineering point of view:  air = overheat.

Like the linked thread shows, though, tiny air left means things are fine and you can do things to get rid of all the air after the big bubble is gone.


The key is that the mk-I C-30 had a unique problem (that's not present on the 34) that caused an airlock and had a Rube Goldberg cooling system valve arrangement that probably led to (at least in my instance) the overheating occurring only under load.  That's not ALWAYS true on the C-30 but it was at the time (right after I got her and wasn't aware of the situation.  I had to figure it out thru my (re)sources (and teach the diesel mechanic) the steps to clear the airlock (which are more involved than on the C34.)     
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Ron Hill

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2021, 09:59:07 AM »

Bill : The next run you do - after hitting 165F also check your coolant recovery bottle and make sure that it is getting the extra fluid.  Then after shut/cool down that the bottle level goes back to where it should be. 

I said that I like to use a clear hose from the coolant outlet on the reservoir side of the engine to the bottle.  That way I can see if there is a bubble or two in the line. 
The line should be solid coolant.

I Keep a small jug of coolant mix onboard in case I might need to add some to the bottle.

A few thoughts

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KWKloeber

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2021, 10:55:15 AM »

Ron:
Iíll submit its better to carry separate coolant and water - then in a REAL emergency (not having water for the scotch) youíre COVERED!!!
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Ron Hill

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2021, 01:28:41 PM »

Ken : In a REAL emergency you can use just water lube!!!  I'd also add some water pump lube to it!!

A thought
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Noah

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2021, 01:36:41 PM »

Just donít use the scotch in motor!! Terrible waste of scotch.
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KWKloeber

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2021, 01:40:36 PM »

I question in a REAL emergency who'd want water pump lube in their scotch?

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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Stu Jackson

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2021, 04:55:30 PM »

Who wastes water in Scotch?!?  Arrgh...  :shock:
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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Roland Gendreau

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2021, 07:39:32 PM »

I had the same bracket failure problem on my M25xp and Joe Joyce sent me replacements.
While waiting for the replacements, I had one of the broken ones welded back together, at least for a backup.   The new bracket had a longer gusset plate, to prevent the bracket from failing again. So far so good.   


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Roland Gendreau
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WBev

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2021, 06:48:53 AM »

Going to meet the welder in ten minutes.  I had ordered the new brackets Friday, and, like Roland, hope to get this one welded as a "spare" with a longer gusset installed.  I read the wiki on replacing motor mounts, and the comments, as well as many of the posts about doing so.  I hope to not have to raise the engine much, if at all, to remove and replace the bracket.
Currently the new brackets are out of stock, but remain in production.  So the weld fix, if it works, may have to stay a while.  My port-front mount looks good, but I will check it out today assuming I can get the bracket off.  Good weather, so hoping for the best.
On the overheating issue, there is no overflow tank on the boat.  I will have to look into one.  The Universal installation manual says the engine came with one. 
Thank you all. I will post anything interesting I encounter.
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Wobegon II
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Ron Hill

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2021, 11:12:25 AM »

Bill : I (and you can) made a coolant recovery system for the cost of a 1qt "Rubbermaid" bottle and a couple of feet of 3/8"?? clear plastic tubing.  Then figure out where you can mount the bottle (I wrote a Mainsheet Article - early 1990s).  You need to be able to see the bottle (check the coolant level) and maybe add a bit of fluid maybe once a year. 
The bottle should be about the height of the engine and doesn't necessarily need to flow out the bottom of the bottle.  Probably a far cry from the Westerbeke bottle cost!!!

A few thoughts
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Stu Jackson

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2021, 11:40:55 AM »

..............
....................
......................

(I wrote a Mainsheet Article - early 1990s). 
......................
..................
...................

In tech notes, need to be an IA member to access:

https://www.c34.org/mainsheet/pdf/2000_no2.pdf
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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