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Author Topic: ? Sudden overheating?  (Read 910 times)

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WBev

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? Sudden overheating?
« on: September 07, 2021, 08:00:18 AM »

Yesterday the M35 started right up, ran very well for 25 minutes and attained normal operating temp of about 165F, at 1500 RPM and 6.2-6.5kts cruising.  Sailed for five wonderful hours in great wind. (Saw 5 other C34's).  Furled the genoa poorly in gusty wind.  Had the admiral start the engine so I could try again.  The engine started right up but with loud screeching noise like a belt or alternator.  She saw the temp go to 180F then to the pin and it was running rough, in the span of a few short minutes while I was wrestling the furler in 18-20kt gusts. I suggested she give it fuel to see if it warmed up and stopped the racket, until I could get back to the helm to check it out. The engine shut down on its' own before I could get back to it.   When I went back to try, it started rough, and shut down again with screeching.  The alternator was showing it was charging. I anchored, let it cool for an hour.  Checked again, raw water was coming out the tail, with lots of smoke and screeching continued.  Shut it down in less than 30 seconds. 
At anchor, instead of grilling up some dinner I:
Pulled and replaced the impeller, the prior on was new this season, and still looked it but I had the Sherwood pump open, and figured why not. 
Coolant level was same, about an inch from the top, nice color.
Oil was fine, no froth, no appearance of anything out of order.
Fan belt - seemed fine.  Backed off and re-tensioned while I had the engine open. (last year the belt was loose and made a similar, lower volume, noise).

So, the smoke seemed white.  Not sure if it relates to the problem. It could be water in the fuel, but I am thinking the fresh water pump because of the screeching.
We sailed back to the dock, in the dark, with 2-3kts wind on the nose. I was done for the day, and the admiral was too.

I will be going back to the boat, just over an hour away.  I read Nigel Calder's suggestions in his Mechanical and Electrical manual. Signs of blow-by are absent.  I will check the fuel bowl. I recognize it is possible with the deck fill cap I may have water in there if not tightened enough.  But the noise leads me elsewhere, to the pump.

Anything else?

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Wobegon II
1992 C-34 MK 1.5
 #1211,  Wing/Tall Rig
Magothy River, MD

Ron Hill

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2021, 09:56:48 AM »

WBev : I carry an stethoscope from an old Blood pressure cuff on board.  You need to find out where this screeching is coming from and that stethoscope will let you know.

My guess is that your internal water pump may be the culprit!!  You also can use an old auto mechanics trick of taking a long common screwdriver and placing the tip on what you are checking and the handle in your ear.

a few thoughts
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KWKloeber

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2021, 10:31:42 AM »

I think youíre on the right path but if the coolant pump was bad Iíd expect to see coolant leaking from the front (bearing.). Maybe it hasnít gotten to that point. Grab the pulley sans engine belt, and try to rock it back n forth (laterally not rotationally) to see if there is play in the shaft/bearing.

Another source of screeching is sometimes an alt bearing but that shouldnít have caused overheating.
Check that the TStat is opening.
You hadnít witnessed the engine running after checking it (except from above)?

Other options to locate noise source(s) are a hardwood dowel or metal rod or a (cheap at Horror Fright) mechanicís stethoscope.

Make sure you have oil pressure and itís not metal Ďgainst metal screeching, which can overheat and otherwise ruin your day in other ways. 
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

WBev

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2021, 03:06:19 PM »

Hmm. Ken's suggestion of oil pressure really scares me.  I was locked into something attached to the belt screeching.    The way the engine was running, with these suggestions, I am now concerned about oil pressure/pump.  It would explain it given the other signs/symptoms. 

Yesterday, after the shut down, the next start did not stay running.  The third start I shut it down quick after confirming water flow out the exhaust, with the very loud screeching.

Engine rebuild is not something I personally have time for at the moment.
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Wobegon II
1992 C-34 MK 1.5
 #1211,  Wing/Tall Rig
Magothy River, MD

KWKloeber

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2021, 09:56:16 PM »

WBev

What alarms did you get?
When the OP alarm switch fails, it could either way, but usually does so closed (creating a false alarm.)
To confirm, you have an M-35 NOT a 35A or 35AC?

If you have a wire off or broken then you will receive NO low-oil-pressure alarm. 
That's why I added an oil pressure gauge to the panel, and maintain that CTY absolutely should have.  For Pete's sake, they did not put an idiot light on the panel to indicate alternator charging.

You can troubleshoot the alarm circuit w/o running the engine.

Fingers crossed that it's something easy and not a bad oil pump !!


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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

WBev

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2021, 08:20:22 AM »

Ken - The engine tag reads M35.  There are no letters next to it. I had a photo, but can't locate it on the cell phone anymore with all the grandson photos on there.

There were no alarms of any kind I could hear above the noise the first time it happened, and when I was at the help on start #3 there were no alarms, but I did shut it down upon confirming raw water was exiting the transom/exhaust. 

Hours on engine are only 1053ish.  But, given Ron and your responses, I now really suspect the oil pump.  I don't believe I have tools to check on this, and if it is the oil pump, starting the engine to hear where the noise is coming from would not be a great idea as I may totally bond the pistons in the cylinders.

My plan:  pull off the belt, wiggle the fresh water pump and if no movement, it is then down to internal. 

I will post my findings. If my suspicion is correct, I will end up hiring a mechanic which will end my season.  I had a 35 day wait to replace the PYI Dripless, etc., on my Pearson, so I bet it will be about the same.
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Wobegon II
1992 C-34 MK 1.5
 #1211,  Wing/Tall Rig
Magothy River, MD

KWKloeber

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2021, 12:25:49 PM »

WBev

With the key on (not running) you get no alarm? 
You should get a low OP alarm.  And of course a low OP alarm running if the oil pump failed.
You didn't get an overheat alarm either?

I don't know which panel or temp alrm you have.  Maybe Ron can assist here --
whether your year/M35 has the added-on temperature SWITCH at the Tstat cap or if your panel has the old circuit board that triggers the temp alarm (that might have totally failed -- that's very common -- and there's no replacement.)  Do you have a pic of the TStat area, or remember if you have one sender (temp gauge) or two (temp switch + temp gauge) on the cap?
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Ron Hill

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2021, 01:59:09 PM »

WBev : Look at your thermostat housing and I believe that you should only have one sending unit which will be the temperature sending sensor.  With that said, if you have a temp alarm it will be the analog to digital PC board scabbed on to the rear of the temp gage.  That PC board looks like a "Dog House" in design.

Not real familiar with the early M35 engine as far as the goofy double pronged oil pressure sensor that was on the later M35 engine that was tied into the electric fuel pump.

See how many prongs are on your oil pressure sensor that is screwed in to the port side on the engine and that will tell you!!

A few thoughts


 
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WBev

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2021, 07:46:37 AM »

Thank you Ken and Ron.  With the key turned to on, yes, there is the buzz signifying low oil pressure.  Once started, the alarm seems to be off.  I apologize for not stating that, as I didn't realize its' importance before.  It always makes the noise and I just let it fade into the back of my brain, as a normal start procedure. 

There were no other bells or whistles overheard from the noise the engine was producing. 

I intend to get down to the boat this weekend.  I have reached out to seven mechanics toward a rebuild price.  So far, two want me to sign a work order, then they will work up an estimate.  Both are reputable, but if this is common, I will have a hard time evaluating cost of rebuild versus cost of replacement.

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Wobegon II
1992 C-34 MK 1.5
 #1211,  Wing/Tall Rig
Magothy River, MD

KWKloeber

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2021, 09:38:48 AM »

The 35 has the good ole OP switch (like the 25, XP); the goofy wiring was introduced with the A / AC (which were exactly the same engine cept the wiring harness change and moving the OP switch away from the oil port to a bracket at the unused engine mount land.

Iíd test the temp alarm. Ground the terminal on the sender - the alarm *should* sound and the gauge pin high. If no alarm the circuit board has failed.
If the alarm sounds test the sender (remove, ground the sender case with a wire/clip, put in boiling water to see if the panel alarm triggers.

You can also verify the sender by reading its resistance to ground (gauge wire removed, or sender removed.)

The resistance of the sender can be measured to determine the senderís correct operation. Remove wire to gauge. Connect an ohmmeter to terminal of sender and to engine block (or case of the sender) Approximate values are: 75įF (room temperature) = 600 to 800 ohms; 212įF = 55
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

glennd3

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2021, 11:02:50 AM »

Please try the water pump that is on the motor, not the fresh water pump. Try turning by hand.
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Glenn Davis
Knot Yet
1990 Catalina 34 Mk 1.5
Hull 1053
TR/WK
M25XP
Patapsco River
Chesapeake Bay Maryland

Ron Hill

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2021, 12:28:40 PM »

Guys : Long ago I wrote a note that I had tapped the oil pressure sounder wires (a real Screamer!!) so a RED led light that I installed on the engine instrument panel also light up when there was NO Oil Pressure!!  Visual and audio alarms!!

A thought   :clap
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 11:23:46 AM by Ron Hill »
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WBev

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2021, 06:50:49 PM »

Today I went back to the boat with the intent to try the fresh water circulator pump and then pull fuel to check for water (long shot).  Definitely the pump.  frozen and the shaft is bent, which apparently put an overload on the engine, pinned the temp gauge, and shut down the engine.  The belt I put on there was an old one kept for back up.  Today the engine turned freely so I believe I may have gotten away without the catastrophic failure I was told likely occurred.  On the night in question, the pump did not wiggle, but I had just replaced the belt.  Today I took the belt off, still no wiggle, but shot. 

The oil pressure alarm does work.

So, finding a Universal pump, part 302503 is the challenge.  Does any one know if the tractor part will work?  Kumar Brothers USA sells one for $35ish, which might require a machine shop's help to pull and press the pulley mating surface, and one they label as proper also for the M-35 for $105 and I can have it Wednesday, for a fee.  Looks like the Kubata block is V1100, and it is used in a small tractor and a small other equipment.   The Universal part is $340, and I have two local places to call (Maryland Marina and Bayshore Marine in Annapolis) to see if they can get it, but I suspect a six week delay if not in stock.  Maryland Marina is a fairly new authorized distributor, with few parts on the shelf.  Bayshore is now part of Diversified, and I don't have much hope there.

Anyone know the answer?  I also have a local Kubota tractor dealer I would go to first is a non-marinized part should be OK. 
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Wobegon II
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Magothy River, MD

KWKloeber

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2021, 09:58:06 PM »

[Edited]

Had you replaced the belt before this happened or after? If before it might be too coincidental -- Maybe too tight? (can destroy both the alternator and water pump bearings.)



finding a Universal pump, part 302503 is the challenge.


Challenge?  Not at all -- you can order direct on the Westerbeke website.  It looks to be in stock but of course, that's no guarantee.

Maryland and Bayshore are not Westerbeke distributors.  Whatever they buy comes from the stocking distributor for your Westerbeke region, Western Branch Diesel.

[There are several Wb dealers in/near your area, if WBD should be able to tell you which ones show it in stock.
 WBD is probably the most likely to have one on the shelf.]

Quote

Does any one know if the tractor part will work?

a non-marinized part should be OK.


There's no "**should** involved, no mystery, no hesitation.
What surprises me is how many are playing hookey from class!!!  The Kubota-Universal relationship is part of every weekly syllabus!!

Everyone, memorize this....  Our engines come from Kubota with parts exactly how they are manufactured for Kb tractors, commercial/construction equipment, gensets, and for other end users.  There's nothing marinized except the VERY FEW parts that Universal Oshkosh and now Westerbeke bolts on (such as the exhaust manifold and the Tstat cap)  (and I'm not convinced that the TStat housing didn't come across the pond already installed.)   They'll be a quiz.

Quote

a machine shop's help to pull and press the pulley mating surface


nonsense.  Who is feeding you that?
Don't overthink this -- the pulley bolts on, look at the picture of the pump and your pulley.
The same pump fits the M-25, M-25XP, M-35, M-35A - the Kubota parts manuals for those engines (they are on the Wiki) show how the pulley is attached.  However, you will find that different engines and different tractors list different part numbers (most times at different prices) but they are the same part -- Kb drives you crazy with legacy part numbers that seem to change monthly.


Quote

a local Kubota tractor dealer I would go to first


Most Kb dealers NEED the part number, or the equipment (tractor) number, some cooperative ones can find parts using the Block number.
Messicks is a very good Kb dealer and supplied most of the parts manuals that I put on the Wiki.

Many owners have used Kumar parts -- as leery as I am about not using "genuine" Kubota, I haven't heard of any problems with Kumar.  Depends on how comfy you feel with aftermarket parts.


« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 10:17:00 PM by KWKloeber »
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Ron Hill

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Re: ? Sudden overheating?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2021, 12:32:54 PM »

WBe : I had to replace my internal water pump on my old M25XP and got the replacement (w/gasket) from the local Kubota dealer.
I believe that I had overtightened the drive belt, which caused the bearings to abnormally wear. 

Now I use the Farmers Almac check.  The belt is tightened so that the belt (waterpump pully to alternator pulley) can be twisted 90 degrees between your finger and thumb.  Haven't had a problem sense!!

A few thoughts
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