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Author Topic: Longest chain rode without a windlass?  (Read 840 times)

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waughoo

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Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« on: January 26, 2021, 06:37:23 PM »

I don't have a windlass, but hope to get one in the not too distant future.  This could be as long as 3 to 5 years out, and possibly longer.  I plan to get a Mantus 35lb and would likely anchor in 25 to 35' depths for my cruising grounds.  I'd like to get as MUCH chain length as possible but without a windlass, I'm concerned about physically lifting the weight.  Does anyone without a windlass have more than 35 or so feet of chain?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 06:39:27 PM by waughoo »
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Alex - Seattle, WA
91 mk1.5 #1120
Std rig w/wing keel
Belafonte

Mick Laver

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2021, 07:58:27 PM »

Hi Alex
How old are you and how's your back. :)

Seriously, a big part of the equation is the chain you're going to use. I have 1/4" G43 which strength-wise seems to be a good fit for our 34s. It's also only .75 lbs/foot. I do have a windlass but I've had to pull 80 ft by hand (33# Rocna) from 25 ft depth and it wasn't bad. I just went slow. I'm assuming you have someone else driving up on the anchor while you're pulling.
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Mick and Sherrie Laver
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1999 C34 Mk II #1432
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waughoo

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2021, 09:33:09 PM »

I'm not terribly old but not young by most's measure.  My concern is hauling up the dead weight from a depth because i put TOO much chain on (and was a bit deep).  I would likely have crew aboard most times to assist with driving while i hauled.
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Alex - Seattle, WA
91 mk1.5 #1120
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Kyle Ewing

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2021, 06:06:51 AM »

I'm in the same situation as I'm upgrading my anchor and don't have a windlass.  Here are my thoughts:

* I'm upgrading from a 22# Bruce to 35# Mantus.  The difference is 13# or about 1.5 gallons of milk.
* I have about 30' of chain and am considering upgrading to 50' of chain (15# more).  The length of chain makes a difference only if I anchor in >30' of water.
* Worst case, I'm pulling up 28#'s more which is about 3.25 gallons of milk (minus any buoyancy from the water) and that decreases as I pull chain in.
* I'll probably have help on board if I have problems pulling it up.  If not I can use a winch to help.

Hope this helps!



 
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Kyle Ewing
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waughoo

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2021, 09:00:05 AM »

Yes... a very helpful analysis.  Thanks for your thoughts.
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Alex - Seattle, WA
91 mk1.5 #1120
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ErikN

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2021, 09:04:20 AM »

I found that I could pull up 30 feet of chain plus a 35lb anchor, until we anchored in some sticky mud. Then the weight of the tackle made it impossible (without a winch) to pull the anchor out of the mud. I went back to a smaller anchor and less chain, and more careful choice of anchorages, until we install a windlass.
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Erik Noonburg, Anacortes WA
#0053 1986, SR/FK, M25, "Callooh! Callay!"

Mick Laver

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2021, 09:28:15 AM »

I've always thought the boat's supposed to break the anchor out, not the windlass.
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Mick and Sherrie Laver
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mark_53

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2021, 09:55:22 AM »

I found that I could pull up 30 feet of chain plus a 35lb anchor, until we anchored in some sticky mud. Then the weight of the tackle made it impossible (without a winch) to pull the anchor out of the mud.

Use the boat to pull the anchor out of the mud, not your back!  Pull rode until straight down, then use the boat's motor to free.  Much easier.
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1989 C34 Mk1 M25XP Danforth 25lb, adjustable backstay, fin keel, EV100 autopilot.

Stu Jackson

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2021, 11:37:13 AM »

Have you read the Anchoring 101 Topics threads?

Jeff Tancock added a windlass to this late 80s boat just last year.

I do not have a windlass, and doubt that I'll get one.  I have 50 feet of 1/4" chain with a Rocna 10 (22#).  I limit my anchoring to around 20 feet depths, which admittedly limits where I (can and do) go to anchor.  I have deliberately limited my cruising to the Southern Gulf Islands and the San Juans.  I will most likely not go further.

I have no trouble hand weighing my system.  My selection criteria of my anchoring system is covered in the 101 Topics in Anchor System Sizing.

If you're going to buy new chain, then size it for the windlass you are going to get in the future.  And read Steve Dolling's system description, too.
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

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ewengstrom

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2021, 12:32:25 PM »

We're not getting any younger so the windlass moved way up on my priority list. I blatantly copied Ron Hill's most excellent install explained in detail elsewhere on this forum. No looking back at all, it works great with 100' of 1/4" HT chain and our Rocna 15.
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Eric Wengstrom
s/v Ohana
Colonial Beach, Virginia
1988 Catalina 34 MKI SR/WK
Hull #564
Universal M25XP
Rocna 15

Ron Hill

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2021, 02:24:44 PM »

Alex :Before I installed a windless, I used 30ft of 1/4" HT chain and a 15 lb (mushroom anchor) sent down the 20" of nylon rode. 

A thought
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Ron, Apache #788

waughoo

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2021, 07:02:23 PM »

Ron... i had forgotten about that work around.  That weight has a name.  Do you or anyone else know what it is called?

Stu,

Yes, i did read the anchoring 101 and saw your set up listed in there.  I'm starting to think 50' is about all the chain i can stand to have on a hand haul anchor with my planned anchor.  I do plan to try and pick my chain to match the windlass.  I will likely get more chain when i have a windlass.  The reason it is a bit down the list right now is that I have so many other pressing repairs overlooked maintenance on this boat that i have to atart getting selective about what i do and don't install/upgrade.
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Alex - Seattle, WA
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Jim Hardesty

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2021, 07:23:57 PM »

Quote
That weight has a name.  Do you or anyone else know what it is called?

Off the top of my head I think its called a catenary weight.
Jim
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Jim Hardesty
2001 MKII hull #1570 M35BC  "Shamrock"
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from Commodore Perry Yacht Club
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Noah

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2021, 07:39:12 PM »

That weight is called a “kellet”. And it is almost as controversial and eyer-raising a subject as what anchor size/type to select, whether to use silicone sealant, and.....  :abd:

« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 07:39:50 PM by Noah »
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Longest chain rode without a windlass?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2021, 08:42:46 PM »

That weight is called a “kellet”. And it is almost as controversial and eyer-raising a subject as what anchor size/type to select, whether to use silicone sealant, and.....  :abd:

Silicone only on Beckson ports.  That one's easy!   :D

I wrote this to a friend on the C36 forum years ago:

Kellet   Sentinel

July 21, 2011

Original Question:

I had another experience that I thought others might benefit from.
A couple of weekends ago, we anchored off of China Camp in the North Bay of SF Bay. Anybody who's been in this area will know that the current really rips through here. We had motored to the beach at the time that the tide changed, so we weren't on the boat when it swung. Somehow it got caught up against the rode, so that when we got back on the boat the rode was running from the bow down the (port) side of the boat to the stern.
I tried to pull it free but the current was too strong. I tried to pull the stern of the boat around with my dinghy but couldn't do that as I only have a 2hp outboard. I was afraid to motor around as I didn't know how close the line passed to the prop. I tried sailing off, but that didn't work either.
I figured that we could just leave it as is and wait until the tide shifted again. So I stretched out in the hammock I'd stretched out from the mast to the forestay. Nice and relaxing, bouncing on the waves.
After a half hour, though, I suddenly noticed that the movement of the hammock had suddenly changed. On sitting up I saw that we were dragging anchor. I tried releasing the anchor rode, but I couldn't.
On we drifted, down towards the other boats. It was a really helpless feeling as we passed one boat after another. Then a guy in a dinghy with a larger outboard came up and offered help. We tied a line from our stern to his dinghy and he was able to pull our stern around to the point where we could drift free of the line and I started up our motor, pulled our anchor and re set it.
My two biggest mistakes: (1) I should have thought of running my spare anchor out and trying to kedge us around and even if I hadn't been able to, at least I'd have had a second anchor; (2) I should have tied a buouy to my line and had a knife ready to cut the rode in case we started dragging anchor.
Anyway, lessons learned. Maybe this experience will help somebody else in a similar fix.


Reply:


Good lesson learned. I always use a sentinel when I anchor up there. The sentinel is NOT used to keep the anchor down, but rather to keep the rode down when the boat swings. Unless it's blowing like stink when the wind shifts, it works. I've had keel wraps up there myself, before I started using the sentinel, although I've always had lots of rode out since there's so much room. I guess I was fortunate enough not to have dragged, but the motion really s*cks. Our sentinel is an 8# mushroom anchor on its own separate rode, connected with a carabiner. Most folks recommend the heftier 15# model, but ours has worked for the past 13 years.
[added] The trick with the sentinel is that when the current reverses there is usually (I say usually) little pull on the rode, so the sentinel drops the rode below the keel as the boat swings (unless it's blowing like stink when the current reverses).


Anchor normally. Attach carabiner to the shackle at the top of the sentinel and another rode to the sentinel shackle, keeping the carbiner free to move. Clip the carabiner to the main anchor rode. Drop the sentinel with its own separate rode and slide it down the anchor rode, about the depth of the water, not much more (figure high water, it'll either sit in the mud at low water - good with a mushroom sentinel anyway, or keep the rode down at higher water). Tie off the sentinel rode to one of your bow cleats. I do it off the port side, don't use the second anchor roller for the sentinel. I keep the sentinel, it's shackle, the carabiner and its own rode in the port locker. The rode is only about twenty to twenty five feet long, 3/8" 3 strand. Our anchor rode is 1/2". The carabiner is there to have a big enough opening to slide down the anchor rode, a shackle itself is too small. Makes it much easier to set and retrieve also.


Question: 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying this:
You leave out about the amount of rode on the sentinel as the water depth at high tide. You clip the caribiner to the end of the anchor and around the rode of the main anchor line. In other words, the end of the sentinel is right along the end of the main anchor line and allowed to, in effect, slide up and down that rode by virtue of the fact that the carebiner is around the anchor line.)
As I'm visualizing it, this will in effect keep the anchor rode going more vertically straight down to the bottom and then horizontal along the bottom.


Reply:

Anchor normally.  Then add the sentinel via carabiner to the rode off the bow.  When the wind picks up, the sentinel will rise, but (hopefully, and based on my experiences at China Camp) when the currents reverse, the sentinel will drop down again and keep your rode from fouling your keel.



« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 08:46:38 PM by Stu Jackson »
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Stu Jackson, C34 IA Secretary, #224 1986, "Aquavite"  Cowichan Bay, BC  Maple Bay Marina  SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)

"There is no problem so great that it can't be solved."
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