C34 Take Two

[KWKloeber]

And, to their credit, regardless of what Ken Kloeber keeps saying, Catalina did implement a few of them themselves.  Not perfect, for sure, but they did.

Don't be mislead, Kevin.  That statement is, well, not factual.

First, because I don't have a C34 so I am unqualified to talk about its general construction/manufacturing. 
Second, there are only two items that I have commented about re: Catalina's defects (because they are common to my C30):

1) Putting WOOD in the keel buss.  A stupid, stupid, idea.
It is only peripherally related to the "Cataina smile," which I have stated, repeatedly, was NOT a design or engineering defect.  Such as here:
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9226.msg67687.html#msg67687
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9537.msg71727.html#msg71727

2) In Frank's frugality, using fabricated plugs (three of them, reportedly using hot glue in a mold) to manufacture an engine harness, instead of buying Universal Medalist's harness for the M-25/25XP, etc., that had "proper" plugs on them.  This created a dangerous fire hazard down the road. See:
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8406.0;attach=6100;image

Frank did zero to stand behind correcting that dangerous (#2) decision.  He could have easily offered less than $10 worth of parts w/ instructions for owners to fix the serious flaw.  Instead, Seaward devised a kit to SELL to customers to fix (which indeed only partially alleviates) the dangerous condition.

A Catalina is what it is -- a well built (for the cost) boat, and which was built better than some other production boats.  It's not a Packet or a Swan and doesn't pretend to be.  That doesn't mean that certain design flaws shouldn't have been "made good" when CTY discovered it screwed up in design/manufacturing -- even if they were few and far between.  I have feelings about Frank's customer service (lack of) after personal interactions when we discussed an issue, but it desn't relate to a design or manufacturing flaw, per se.
There are some manufacturing quality issues, which are mainly caused by the "quality" of techs on the assembly line back the 70s and 80s when CTY was cranking out so many boats in a year.

Having NOTHING to do with Catalina Yachts,  I HAVE on the other hand lamented many many times about Universal Medalist's (now defunct) engineering/design flaws and that UM did ZERO to stand behind it's product and "make it right" to correct the flaws (well-documented so no need to beat them to death here.)  "Making a mod" (cute replacement words for "correcting design/manufacturing flaws") in engines years down the road is not standing behind products that already went out the door.  Neither is UM simply alerting owners about a defect, standing behind its product.  Westerbeke has continued less than stellar support and worse, continued some poor manufacturing in certain items, in favor of keeping a few extra bucks in its pocket (these also are well-documented,) and Wb issuing Factory Bulletins (warning about a flaw) is not standing behind its product. 
There is no comparing the quality and support between a current Westerbeke "Universal" engine and a Beta or Yanmar.  That's fact.

[Ron Hill]

Ken and Guys : I could write a thesis on both of these topics!!!

WOOD in the keel buss and mast step. More than stupid  You have a factory that is turning out a hundreds of fiberglass boats each week!  You all have mixed epoxy or fiberglass resin.  You always have some extra resin left before it "kicks".  Why not take that extra and place it in forms/slabs or even coat pressure treated lumber to be used in those busses or step housings??? 

That STUPID wiring harness.  Ken already mentioned the goofy trailer connectors that disintegrated are a fire hazard
!
First of all look at the piss poor DC wiring diagram that came in the owners manual!!  It has the battery selector switch, two batteries, and some sketches on the Main Electrical panel shown!  Were is the DC alternator???  Where is the DC wiring for the engine instrument panel??  Where pray tell is the engine tach getting its signal from??  etc.?

The 1986 & 87 C34s had an ammeter in the engine panel so it was necessary to send the alternator output to the amp meter (which had an internal shunt). The alternator was a "powerboat" alternator with an internal voltage regulator that allowed the stock 55 amp Motorola  output of 50+ amps. for a NANO second before it dropped down a couple of amps!!

Now comes the 1988 C34 (and subsequent production) with a voltmeter, do you change the Alternator Output - hell NO. You still send all the output thru a #10 wire up 7ft to the engine instrument panel and then another 10ft back to the battery selector switch then thru some more #4 wire - till the few amps. left, finally reach the batteries!! This is more than stupid.
Now in the C34s you also make amp hungry refrigeration (4 amps/hr ) an option!! Now ask Catalina what is really needed to support refrigeration and there is NO answer!! 
Many Mainsheet and other sailing magazine articles on what is need to support refrigeration in sailboats are finally starting to emerge! 
It took me a couple of years to sort out all of that unpublished wiring, to figure it all out and publish it in the Mainsheet tech notes!
 
I once told Gerry Douglas that Catalina should have as an option - a Hi-output alt., an external Voltage reg., upgraded (marine) wiring and a battery monitor. I guess it fell on deaf ears and not too sure what they are doing now??
But let me tell you it was hell trying to figure all this out by word of mouth, magazine articles and telephone -- early 1990s with NO INTERNET yet!!!

Enough said before I get myself in more trouble.  A few thoughts!!!
 

[KWKloeber]

 

That STUPID wiring harness.  Ken already mentioned the goofy trailer connectors that disintegrated are a fire hazard
!

...with a voltmeter ....  You still send all the output .... to the ... panel

It took me a couple of years to sort out all of that unpublished wiring, to figure it all out and publish it in the Mainsheet tech notes!
 
... Catalina should have as an option - a Hi-output alt....

Ron

I can understand (but not condone) keeping the RV plugs because that's how Universals were delivered (and STILL ARE, different rubber plugs.)  Still, after the first instance of an issue, the engine harness should have undergone circumcision at CTY (in favor of a handful of butt connectors.)  But making the mating
hot glue plugs??? C'mon, really Frank?

At least the M-25s in the 30s had a 72-amp Motorola alt option.  AND it had external V sense (not that CTY ever ran it to the bank, but....)

Voltmeter... REALLY???? CTY didn't flip the AO right to the solenoid???  It STILL went to the panel??????  WHY?!?!?!?!?  That's a new one I heard!!  AFAIK, the 30s AO jumped to the solenoid when the VM change was made.

[Ron Hill]

Ken : I just had a long detailed reply that whizzed off into the ether somewhere, but I'll try to answer you again.

Leroy Tank (Oshkosh Medalist tech) Mike Hoffman (Weems & Plath, AutoMac Tech) and Dave Gardner (Seaward tech that had been at Bristol marine) all got tired of me calling them.  It was Mike that came to my C34 in Annapolis that figured out that the AutoMac sense wire was connected to the engine instrument panel along with the Alternator output (it took hours to figure that out by chasing wiring) were both connected to that same panel.  No wonder my AutoMac wouldn't kick-in and take control of the alternator! He came up with another kind of goofy circuit to make the AutoMac function.

Catalina continued to use the same wiring harness for the Voltmeter engine panel as they did for the Ammeter Engine panel.  This continued into the 1993? C34 production because I know of friends with the M35 engines.  I wouldn't be surprised if that same thing didn't happen to the C36 MK1s in the same time period??
Why waste a good harness just because you change instruments? - come on Ken, you have to think like Frank!!

I would have thought that the engines from Oshkosh would have come with a wire from the alternator output to the starter solenoid?  Did Catalina remove that wire?? 

Any way by the time Catalina admitted to that screwed-up wiring I had gotten tired of it all and changed to a duel output Balmar wired directly to the batteries. One +pos lead to to each battery and also direct -neg lead to both batteries.

Anyway it would have been nice to have a COMPLETE DC wiring diagram of all DC circuits. I had a "blueprint" diagram of the engine panel from Bristol Marine.

BTW Catalina labels it a DC BUSS BAR in the "abbreviated" DC owners manual wiring diagram!!

A few thoughts

[KWKloeber]

I would have thought that the engines from Oshkosh would have come with a wire from the alternator output to the starter solenoid?  Did Catalina remove that wire?? 

come on Ken, you have to think like Frank!!

Ron

AFAIK, no alt to solenoid cable on any UM engine. 
UM never changed its charging setup (or it's panels, which contained ammeters) -- it was CTY/Seaward who only on their end did the AM to VM switch. 
That is, until after Westerbeke bought UM, then, yes, the "A" engines (XPA, etc.) came out changed to Westerbeke's wiring standard (same as on the "B" engines,) which jumpered the AO to the solenoid.

Question that continually bugs me is that (I wish I had been able to pick Tank's brain) UM made DIESEL engines -- then why wasn't their tach AC signal brought through the harness????  UM had a panel w/ a tach -- why make boat mfgrs wire the tach AC separately???!

**Apprently I'd never want to think like Frank.  No need to toss a perfectly good harness, just NOT use the orange wire in it!  (I used the orange wire to drive an oil pressure gauge.)  For all the innovations, this shows how narrow thinking revailed about certain things.

[scgunner]

So what are we going with on the wiring harness guys, a can of worms, or a bag of snakes?

[Ron Hill]

Kevin : Just background of both the Can and the Bag.
 
Would you believe that there are still C34s out there that have NOT changed the old harness out!!   

A thought

[scgunner]

You raise a very interesting point, Ron. So what does that say about the original, much maligned, and feared wiring harness? If there are boats still running around with the original W/H I think you'd have to say that the original W/H has given them 30 to 35 years of reliable service.

[Ron Hill]

Kevin : Salient observation!! 
All I can say is that I had added the new Balmar alternator and wired its output direct to the batteries. So I wasn't in any hurry to change out those "gummy" trailer connectors, because I'd already fixed the charging problem.   

Maybe 6/12 months? later I finally decided to look at the trailer connector end down at the engine.  I snipped the wire tie and unwrapped the black electrical tape from around that plug. To my surprise the entire plug disintegrated and fell apart in my hand!!!
A friend of mine's wife was on his 1992 C34 at anchor. He had taken the dog ashore in the dink.  Suddenly the engine started.  The wife went over and pulled the engine cutoff.  The engine stopped and then started again by itself - she panicked and jumped into the water wanting nothing to do with that boat.  My friend came back and found her in the water with the boats engine running!!

I grew up in a house that was built in 1849!  It had plug wiring (a ceramic plug that had one wire on one side and the other wire on the other side) the insulation on the wires was woven cloth!!  Sure it functioned, but it really wasn't safe.

So to answer your question - that old harness my still be functioning, but it is still a electrical hazard and should be changed!!

A few thoughts
 

[KWKloeber]

[gramatically Edited]

You raise a very interesting point, Ron. So what does that say about the original, much maligned, and feared wiring harness?

Kevin,
The harness is manufactured out of parts, and the sum of the whole is only as safe (and as efficient at starting and charging) as the most failure-prone part.

Will a harness give reliable service for 30 years?
Well, will adding diesel fuel to the same tank for 30 years give reliable service?  It depends -- how about if there's just ONE crappy fuel fill-up that contaminates the tank?

As far as the harness over 30 years,
1) Has it been subject to 30 years of salt air (i.e., did corrosion wick up the untinned, plain copper conductors with OPEN ends (non-heat-shrink terminals) that roll out a welcome mat for moisture)?
2) Have BOTH plug sets been cleaned, their contacts tightened up, sprayed with non-corrosion, and sealed with silicone tape?
3) How long have the plugs been pumping 50 amps (thru essentially two bullet connectors) that's not rated for that (and coupled with engine heat) have melted a plug (some boats STILL have ammeters and/or STILL pump the AO current to the panel)?
4) Has corrosion attacked the dozen STA-KON terminals at the engine end, and has eaten away the crimped copper and the conductor is about to break (or one has already)?
5) Has the "S" wire barrel fuse been replaced with a decent, weathertight fuseholder?
6) Has proper fusing been added to protect the harness (and boat)?***

If all above have been properly taken care of and the boat is freshwater, the harness will probably last (given that the ammeter fiasco is corrected.)  HOWEVER, critical components on a boat need to be designed for the lowest common denominator -- those who invite Murphy on every sail -- not just those where he's an occasional stowaway.

Additionally, some ass/u/me that the engine-to-panel harness extension is the same as the short harness that came attached to the engine.  It isn't - the Univesal (engine) harness had fairly decent plugs - either good rubber (Westerbeke still uses them) or hard, white, plugs.  The extension was made in-house (or by Seaward/Bristol) using (reportedly?) hot glue inlected into a mold (you know Frank.)  SO typically, Universal's plug (on the engine side - black one, below) stays intact and the Catalina engine plug (amber one, also below) falls apart into a gummy bear mess.  The latter becomes the fire hazard. and if it shorts out, the lifespan of the harness, and POSSIBLY the entire boat, can be less than 30 years.

I have lamented many times, that a harness may not need replacing (mine did not) BUT (if the wires are still ok) certain components DO NEED to be replaced (AHS terminals used and plugs eliminated.)  If the copper hasn't corroded, once AHS terminals are installed it is fine.

***I'll say it again, ALL harnesses need to have fuses added (which were on NO harness, ZERO, and even the "A" and "B" engines are improperly fused) and if conductors (the "S" wire) are undersized (many harnesses had 16 awg and it should be 10 awg) it needs to be upsized, and smaller conductors (purple field excite, red fuel pump power, panel gauge wiring) need to be fused where they're powered off the key switch.

Not maligned -- but properly characterized as a critical component that the OEM is failure-prone unless judiciously maintained and properly upgraded.

-ken

[scgunner]

Guys,I'm a belt and suspenders guy too. There are a lot of smart people on this site, if their recommendation is to replace the original W/H that's good enough for me. I just found it interesting that after 30+ years there are boats out there with original harness's. What would be even more interesting would be to find a boat with an original W/H and do a thorough examination of the state of that harness.

Ken, Like you I'm a big fan of fuses and believe you can't have to many only not enough. As an example, British cars were notoriously under fused, I had short in the cigar lighter(which I don't even use!)it fried the entire W/H which of course I had to replace and to add insult to injury, when you can find one new W/H for a Jensen-Healey are $1000 a piece! So yeah, I'm a fuse guy.

[fatamorgana]

I just recently replaced mine.  The side at the engine wasn't too bad, but the side at the gauges fell apart in my hands after taking off all of the electrical tape holding it together.

[Ron Hill]

Kevin and Guys : The pictures above should make all who have not changed that old harness - BELIEVERS!!, and realize that their Guardian Angel is getting tired of protecting them!! 

A thought