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Author Topic: Catalina Smile  (Read 999 times)

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crieders

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Catalina Smile
« on: January 07, 2020, 10:53:17 AM »

The Catalina Smile is back  :D . I have seen some discussion about this over the years.  What is the best way to handle?  I am reluctant to start grinding out any part of the keep and perhaps this is just a surface impurity.  What is your thinking on this.  (Video available but too large to post in the forum).
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Cliff Rieders, c34 tall rig, 1990, hull #1022

Ron Hill

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2020, 02:00:29 PM »

Cliff : You didn't say, but I assume that you have a wing keel.  If so the main problem is that the boat is NOT blocked properly.  As I recall the factory told me (30 yrs ago?) that 25% of the boat weight should be on the stands and 75% of the weight should be on the keel - with the majority of that weight on the nose of the keel!!

A few thoughts
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KWKloeber

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2020, 04:25:20 PM »

The Catalina Smile is back  :D .

I am reluctant to start grinding out any part of the keep and perhaps this is just a surface impurity.

Back?  What had you done to repair it in the past (apologies if I missed a prior post.)  What surface (gel coat?) impurity would cause a Catalina smile crack?
Tho I have a fin, I too thought "How bad can this be?  I'll just grind out the surface per the CTY fix drawings and fix it.  "

To my shock, 1/3 to 1/2 the bedding (polyester chop/mung mix) was gone (not missing but punky like wet gypsum drywall.)  This was from likely a combination of the wood in the keel buss (C-30,) water leaking down the keel bolt threads, and improper blocking exacerbating the crack after the joint had been compromised.  After researching and opinions from Geoguon Brothers (West Systems - excellent advice ) and Frank (useless) I choose to drop, repair (resurface the top of), and rebed the fin.

Cliff my point is that you don't know what you have until you know what you have, and that takes grinding out the joint to reveal the condition.  Alternately, I suppose you could drill into the joint in several places to see if the cuttings are muck or competent, and then decide how far to go with your grinding.  It won't eliminate any needed work, but you might get a fair warning up-front as to what's in front of you and how to attack it.  On the pats of the joint that were still competent, it was a BEAR. I ended up drilling from side-to-side (long 3/8" electrician bit) to create "serrations" that I cut between with a Sawzall w/ a carbide grit blade.  Actually BLADES, the fiberglass ate them up like candy.

If you hesitate to grind to uncover the extent and want to avoid the task -- just leave it and hide it cosmetically -- your keel won't fall off.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
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Noah

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2020, 04:32:28 PM »

Ken— I do not believe the 1990 C34 has any wood between the lead and fiberglass in the keel stub structure. It is my understanding that the wood sandwich method of construction in the keel was discontinued in the late 1980’s.
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1990 hull #1014, San Diego, CA,  Fin Keel,
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KWKloeber

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2020, 07:37:03 PM »

Ken— I do not believe the 1990 C34 has any wood between the lead and fiberglass in the keel stub structure. It is my understanding that the wood sandwich method of construction in the keel was discontinued in the late 1980’s.

Thx Noah,
(I neglected my usual "Stu" caveat) -- I didn't intend to imply that my condition was identical to the C34 -- only described my condition (and the rationale for grinding vs. covering it up.) 

However, water traveling down the keel bolt threads (the prime reason for water attacking the joint and it going punky) isn't dependant on having the wooden plank in place.  In fact, I left mine in there as it wasn't rotted.)  I believe the plank was eliminated in 88 or 89 on the C30, and my keel hasn't fallen off in the 20 years hence!!  :D :D :clap :thumb:

-cheers
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Ron Hill

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2020, 02:05:23 PM »

Guys : I asked Gerry Douglas when the wood ended in the keels of the C34 production.  I printed that hull # in the Mainsheet tech notes.  As I recall it was a hull in the low 700s. Sorry time has eroded the exact number from my memory.

A thought

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Bill Shreeves

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2020, 02:51:28 PM »

Like many, my 34 isn't completely sealed at the keel / keel stub joint.  I know this because I too have some discoloration appearing from a portion of the joint on the outside this winter while on the hard.  Saw it last year too.  I will likely drop the keel to re-bed this Spring after dealing with / remediating wet wood in my bilge.

I'd greatly appreciate feedback / thoughts from other forum members regarding my "bilge wood project".  Rather than re-post, if interested, you can see my recent updates in the "Mast Step / Stringer" post of this forum

https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9208.0.html

-Thanks
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 08:20:00 PM by Stu Jackson »
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crieders

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2020, 09:20:03 AM »

lots of interesting approaches
yes I had this before and put some flex sealer
Its a hairline crack about 8 inches back on front and both sides
I do have a fin keel.

I talked to Warren Pandy about it and he simply suggested that I create a v-shaped channel and fill it with West epoxy flex and check tightness of keel bolts.
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Cliff Rieders, c34 tall rig, 1990, hull #1022

Ron Hill

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2020, 02:48:03 PM »

Cliff : With a fin keel I'll guess that you can thank the travel lift operator and the blocking people for your Catalina smile. 

A thought
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kurt

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2020, 04:52:29 PM »

Hi All,

Just had my bottom job done this week.   Here is my smile - top photo this weeks haulout bottom from 2017 haulout.  Bilge is dry (in summer.)

Lots of excellent information here obviously.  I figured some pics may be helpful to showcase one example of a C34 fin keel smile.


Kurt
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 07:26:10 AM by kurt »
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Noah

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2020, 04:54:57 PM »

Ron- Not sure what you are saying/inferring. Can you please clarify?
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1990 hull #1014, San Diego, CA,  Fin Keel,
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Breakin Away

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2020, 07:31:55 PM »

I'm a little puzzled by the second picture. Aside from looking like it was taken in Australia (which I can ignore), the crack looks to be much lower than the joint between the keel and keel stub, where the Catalina smile typically occurs.
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2001 MkII Breakin' Away, #1535, TR/WK, M35BC, Mantus 35# (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

crieders

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2020, 08:36:48 AM »

it looks to be in about the same place as mine
[img]
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Ron Hill

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2020, 02:56:01 PM »

Guys & Noah :  The way a hull (especially a wing keel) should be blocked is so that the front jack-stands are just snug against the hull so the boat can not tip over - with the main weight of the boat on the nose of the keel . The stands just behind the keel should be very tight and also with the same with the stands near the transom  (load bearing on the 4 rear (aft of center) and snug on the 2 front stands). 
Most travel-lift operators want to tilt the hull so the bow is higher than the stern so that any water in the cockpit will run out the scuppers and place a load on the front stands.  In that blocking effort if the operator sets the keel (main boat weight) on the ground blocking and then lets the aft strap down further/faster than the fwd strap the hull will rotate aft and you'll stress the fwd joint of the keel to hull - the Catalina Smile.  The stern of the boat is always heavier in the winter because the fuel tank is topped off (full) to prevent condensation.

Anyway those are my thoughts 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 02:59:42 PM by Ron Hill »
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Breakin Away

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Re: Catalina Smile
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2020, 08:17:38 PM »

On a separate but related subject, I re-torque my keel bolts while on the hard every year. 107 ft-lb, free loaner torque wrench from AutoZone, and a 1-1/8" extra deep socket bit with extension and pivot attachment for the hard-to-reach nuts. It's so easy to do that there's no reason not to have it on annual PM:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009ALXYOE/
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2001 MkII Breakin' Away, #1535, TR/WK, M35BC, Mantus 35# (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)
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