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Author Topic: Engine not turning over  (Read 269 times)

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Luana

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Engine not turning over
« on: July 31, 2019, 08:18:38 PM »

I am hoping to once again call upon the wisdom of the C34 group with a problem that currently stymies me. (2004 Catalina Mk 2 with a Kubota 35 hp) The problem lies between my new group 27 battery (800 cca) and the starter.  When I switch the battery isolater to #1 position (start) the motor turns over and over, without catching.  The moment I turn it to position #2 (house), it starts immediately.  The house is 4 new golf cart batteries. 
Here is what I have done.  I have exchanged my new battery with yet another new battery with identical results.  On the battery isolater switch, I have reversed the start and house battery cable resulting in an instant start on #1 (now the house) and the same feeble result as above on #2.  This suggests to me the battery is fine and the isolater switch is fine.  I have removed and cleaned the battery posts on the starter battery. As well I have cleaned all terminal posts and cables going to the starter.  Using jumper cables, I went from the isolater switch #1 position to the starter battery to isolate the positive cable.  Same result when trying to turn over engine.  I then took the battery cables and jumped from the off/on switch for the motor to the positive post on the starter, same result.  This seems to indicate that all positive cables to/from the battery to the isolater switch  then to the starter are all fine, otherwise the jumper cables would have served to bypass any short in the cables.  To be clear, I did not remove the positive cables from their posts on the battery or isolator switch, I simply jumped them with battery cables.
The fact that the motor jumps into action with the house batteries, suggests that the starter is also fine.  So, I am left with a situation that has forced us back to the docks and scratching our heads in wonder. One added note, I do not have a Blue Seas ACR installed yet.  I would like to first resolve this issue.  If I have missed something, I would appreciate hearing any feedback that might bring this electrical problem to an end.  Many thanks in advance. 
PS. I have read Phils thread regarding starting problems as there were some good ideas that I will test on my boat tomorrow.
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Rod
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britinusa

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Re: Engine not turning over
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2019, 04:36:11 AM »

I had a problem reading this.

Here's what I read from your post - please correct me.

Start #1 -- Engine turns but does not 'catch' ie. The solenoid does not throw the starter gear into the flywheel.

House #2 -- Engine starts

Swap Start(#1) & House(#2)

#2 -- Engine turns but does not 'catch' ie. The solenoid does not throw the starter gear into the flywheel.

#1 -- Engine starts

My conclusion so far is that it has to be a wiring issue from the Start Battery to the Battery Selector Switch

Did this happen after replacing the Start Battery? If so, I would guess that it's a battery / switch terminal end that is bad.

I did not read that you successfully started the engine using the jump cables - is that correct? If not, then I would suspect the starter cable too.

Forgive me if I misread your post.

Paul
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KWKloeber

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Re: Engine not turning over
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2019, 05:58:11 AM »

Rod

Bottom line thereís nothing that can be different/causing this than low voltage/available current in one path versus another. Thereís nothing that starts a diesel except preheating and engine compression/fuel (related to engine speed.)

Check the voltage at both batteries and at the solenoid B post, both at rest and while cranking. Check starter V to the engine block (because thatís what the starter motor sees) not back to the battery negative post.

Since the flywheel spins both ways (if everything else, fuel? preheat?, is the TRUELY same as you explain it) the difference in start/no start must be speed at which it spins.

Report back!
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
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Luana

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Re: Engine not turning over
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2019, 09:04:59 AM »

Hi Paul, thanks for clarifying and yes, you are correct in your interpretation.  This boat is still fairly new to us so the learning curve has been 'verticle'!   You are also correct that I was unable to start the engine using the jumper cables, however, when I moved the jumpers from the house bank to the starter, the engine did start.  I did use the positive jumper cable from the battery terminal to the battery selector switch resulting in the engine turning but not catching.  I thought by swapping the Start and House cables on the battery switch I would rule out the battery switch as the same issues presented just in reverse, as you mentioned.
Thanks Paul for taking the time to respond to this query. 
Regards,
Rod
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Rod
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Luana

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Re: Engine not turning over
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2019, 09:14:48 AM »

Thanks KW.  I will be heading to the boat tomorrow and hopefully be able to report back any news.
Cheers
Rod
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Rod
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KWKloeber

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Re: Engine not turning over
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2019, 09:36:46 AM »

Rod

If you have any questions/issue/revelation while youíre there I emailed you my cell/text number.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Luana

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Re: Engine not turning over
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2019, 07:46:57 PM »

The mystery of the engine not starting has been solved.  I thought it might be useful to offer to the group how this issue was resolved.  Paul offered great information that confirmed that I was on the right track in terms of trouble shooting the downstream side of the equation.  The frustrating part was that the issue was still unresolved.  Ken offered some information regarding:  "Thereís nothing that starts a diesel except preheating and engine compression/fuel (related to engine speed.)"  This got me thinking about the glow plugs.  Long and short of it is that the issue focused on the ignition/glow plug activator switch.  With assistance, I was able to check the switch and found connections that were not good.  That has been rectified and the engine is now an easy start.  I was able to start the engine on house batteries, as mentioned, probably because of the massive amperage going through the ignition switch.  Thanks to all the contributors!  The biggest take away for me from this was to 'understand the scope of the problem and 'all' the variables.  Once you understand all the variables to the problem, you can systematically trouble shoot until you find success.  Thanks again!
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Rod
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Engine not turning over
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2019, 08:02:57 PM »

Rod, congratulations and thanks for the report.  Feedback is always so welcomed.

I had to replace my ignition switch right before a cruise last year and wrote it up in the Tech Notes.

Link coming for those of you who are C34IA members:

http://c34.org/Ignition-Key-Switch-Replacement/

« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 08:04:26 PM by Stu Jackson »
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KWKloeber

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Re: Engine not turning over
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2019, 04:09:49 PM »

Rod:

"Root cause analysis," "Occam's Razor," "Critical Thinking," "troubleshoot, before replace," "Kudos"
All apply!

If you want to go as we discussed, here are some links:

to "switch" your hardware:
     https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?id=618206
     https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?id=617149
     https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?id=917192

Or to keep the existing PB start and add a toggle for preheat (prob no space for an additional PB?):
      https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?id=916182
      https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?id=913824
      https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?id=917224
      https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?id=917192

Over the yrs Seaward had (per Catalina's specifications) several panel/switch configurations: (I guess trying to find the "right" combination?
2-pos key switch:
     off / on (powers panel & preheat & start); PB preheat; PB start.
     off / on (powers panel & preheat & start); Pull switch preheat; PB start.
3-pos key switch:
     off / on (powers panel & preheat) / momentary on (preheat & start power); PB start.
     off / on (powers panel & preheat) / momentary on (start); momentary-on toggle preheat.
  * off / on (powers panel & preheat & start) / momentary on (start); PB preheat (the most-logical start :thumb: just like an auto)

* A morph is to power the preheat whenever the battery sw is on (so you don't need the key and alarm on while preheating.)

Why on some models Catalina had Seaward move the preheat from a PB to an undersized (amp-wise) key switch is baffling. :donno:  Not one of their better ideas! :roll:
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain
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