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Author Topic: Antifreeze: Which type is best?  (Read 1346 times)

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TortolaTim

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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2019, 08:36:32 AM »

My local NAPA has it and we have a wholesale account there. The price shown on-line is a retail price. I would suspect that most NAPA's can get it because they cater to fleet, municipalities etc... I only chose it because it meets the Mitsubishi requirement and my engine block is a Mitsubishi not really a Westerbeke. Since converting to Rotella Ultra ELC I have had zero sludge issues but this is not to say that another diesel grade coolant would not perform the same or similarly.
 

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SHR550026252



Upon your advice, I ordered some Ultra ELC online to be picked up at my local NAPA here in Detriot Metro. The guy from the store called me later and apologetically said the distributor would only sell it by the case. He tried to change warehouse's mind, but they wouldn't budge. I ended up just getting the regular ELC instead. I don't know if this is a NAPA issue just locally for me, but disappointing nonetheless. I looked around and couldn't find anyone else that carried it.
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Tim Callico
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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2020, 08:30:08 PM »

I still havenít replaced my AF, but hoping to soon, so Iím reopening this topic.

What is the recommended flushing procedure? Just DI water? Rydlyme solution? Commercial automotive flushing products?
I will definitely change antifreeze this winter, so I'm back to this topic with additional questions.

First, what is the recommended flushing material? (as asked above) Should I rinse with water before/after the flush?

Second, I'm still open to recommended coolant brands. I really want something easy to find, because Murphy guarantees that if I ever need to buy more, I will be in a very remote place with few options.

Finally, my motor is winterized and boat yard water turned off for the winter. Is there a way I could do the drain/rinse/flush/rinse/refill without running the motor? I have a really nice Little Giant Pony impeller pump which could circulate everything through the motor without it running. I assume that if I remove the thermostat that the liquid would also flow into the areas around the cylinders. Is there any need for the motor to be heated up, or can I just use the impeller pump to recirculate everything though the cooling system? If so, where is the best place to connect the pump to recirculate everything? (Note that I have an M35B, which seems to have very different hose routing from earlier Universal motors. Some of Stu's recommended draining techniques do not work with this motor because hose interconnects are in the wrong place.)

I thought I had once seen something on Mainesail's website demonstrating a flushing technique with an external recirculation pump, but I cannot find it on either his old or new website. Could someone post a link for this if it's still there?
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2020, 12:27:51 PM »

Is this it?  (from the 101 Topics)

Winterizing an Engine on the Hard (Thanks to Maine Sail) - NEVER connect a hose to your raw water pump inlet - NEVER!!!

https://youtu.be/PKky09u1fGU
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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2020, 07:49:08 PM »

Is this it?  (from the 101 Topics)

Winterizing an Engine on the Hard (Thanks to Maine Sail) - NEVER connect a hose to your raw water pump inlet - NEVER!!!

https://youtu.be/PKky09u1fGU
Hi Stu, thanks for trying, but that's winterization (which is pretty much the same thing that I do, except I put the bucket int the aft berth).

I thought I saw a video of a flushing procedure for the freshwater coolant side of the motor, where Rod had a circulation pump sitting in front of the motor. I poked around his YouTube channel which you linked, but I still can't find it. Maybe it was someone else's video.

Anyway, I'd love to hear what others do for flushing and rinsing of the freshwater side, as I haven't found much on this topic in my searches.
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KWKloeber

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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2020, 09:31:00 PM »

BA

Google is your friend.  A search locates the info (first time) -- on several forums like google Beneteau, Sailnet, Cruisers (maybe others.)  RC's procedure (and link to a couple of pics are there.)

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22mainesail%22+engine+coolant+flush

-k

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KWKloeber

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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2020, 10:02:02 PM »

Quote from: Breakin Away

if I remove the thermostat that the liquid would also flow into the areas around the cylinders. Is there any need for the motor to be heated up, or can I just use the impeller pump to recirculate everything though the cooling system? If so, where is the best place to connect the pump to recirculate everything? (Note that I have an M35B, which seems to have very different hose routing from earlier Universal motors.


BA, correct you can use an impeller pump.

If you are using RydLyme it's best to NOT HEAT it (do you expect calcium deposits in the closed system?)

If you use a lime buster, of course, you cannot see inside to know when its finished its job.  You can use pH paper to check when the return solution has reached equilibrium -- i.e., the pH is no longer rising (RydLyme is an acid, so reacting with deposits will raise the pH of the return solution.)

Not sure what you mean re: the B series' having a VERY different coolant hose routing -- can you be specific? 
The only (major) difference would be that OEM, some older Universals (basically M-25s) had the water heater plumbed inline (in series) with the Hx, instead of on a separate, parallel loop (plumbed to the thermostat bypass.)  That's how M-25s were on the C-30, dunno if M-25s on the C-34 were the same.

See coolant routing (second article):
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/wiki/Home

Depending on where you introduce the flush and return the flush solution, determines what a parts of the engine it touches (water jacket, exhaust manifold, Hx, coolant pump, etc.)  So, theoretically, you don't HAVE TO remove the TStat, but it does make it easier to flush completely.

Lastly, not being too anal -- but you actually own an engine (not a motor.)  Flushing a motor wouldn't be a good idea. :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2020, 01:56:02 PM »

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I thought I saw a video of a flushing procedure for the freshwater coolant side of the motor, where Rod had a circulation pump sitting in front of the motor. I poked around his YouTube channel which you linked, but I still can't find it. Maybe it was someone else's video.

Anyway, I'd love to hear what others do for flushing and rinsing of the freshwater side, as I haven't found much on this topic in my searches.

Yes, I thought I'd give it a try, but kinda knew it wasn't the freshwater side.  I don't recall MS doing a video on that, so could be someone else.  I do remember something like that, but could have been refilling the freshwater system after draining or replacing a water heater - his way to BURP.  I do recall it being one in front of the engine, too.  I don't recall seeing anything on the subject here either.

My methods over the years have consisted of:

1.  Breaking the old alternator mount, so when the alternator slammed down, it took out the freshwater hose and the oil filter.  Seems the oil filter "saved" the timing gear cover!  Anyway, I got to replace the coolant and the oil.  1999.  That's when I wrote my article about it, in the tech wiki.

2.  Replacing and/or removing the HX.  When I bought our boat I took the old 2" HX off and cleaned the salt off the inlet port, which had blocked 1/2 of it!  I did this every two years until I got my new 3" HX.  And then I had to replace that one when the support bracket broke and reamed a hole it it.  Many times replacing the coolant.

3.  Replacing the engine hoses.  Did them all maybe 7 years ago.

Lots of opportunities.  One thing, though, I never actually flushed the system, figuring that repeated refills of replacement of still good coolant would have done the job.

If I was doing it, I'd run the engine after draining the old coolant best I could, refilling with nothing but distilled water, drain and refill with coolant.  I've been using the environmentally friendly stuff, but haven't found it here yet, so will have to switch to "regular" next year or so.

I looked at photos of an M35B that are in this forum (search M35B flix) and didn't see anything apparent as to how to drain, since I do understand things are different on your engine than in my "Burping" photos.  But I'm sure you could find a place to disconnect a freshwater coolant hose and drain it via a funnel and hose into a bucket. 

Years ago someone suggested using one of the petcocks.  I disagreed.  I was in the building construction industry for 50 years, and learned that the small orifices on petcocks are notorious for getting clogged and then not closing properly.  I don't think it's worth the risk.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 01:59:10 PM by Stu Jackson »
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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2020, 04:02:40 PM »

Stu

The google search link I posted to BA calls up the forums that have Rod's flushing procedure (and/or copy/pastes thereof) and one or two links to his pix (bucket sitting on the sole.)  I didn't find a vid of it, but I didn't take the time to search for every one of is posts to see if he linked to a vid. 

As soon as I get time I'll put Rods stuff on the wiki>engine.

The B series can be drained exactly the same as yours and mine. There's nothing different/exotic -- the coolant circulating pump has the "same" portside hose from the Hx to the pump to disconnect.  The hose from the exh manifold to the Hx is the same.  The hose from the Tstat housing to the exhaust manifold comes off the back of the Tstat, instead of the side - only difference.

Only one seawater hose is port-side (instead of stbd-side) but the coolant hoses are the same from the M25/35 to the XP to the XPA/35A to the XPB/35B.)

I don't know if you are aware - maybe you are -- our coolant petcock (stbd side) is a ball valve so, unlike a globe valve, there shouldn't be much to clog and a particle would be self cleared as far as when the valve is operated.  I've drained there many times, no runs, no drips, no errors.  Although, if not simply draining but "flushing" (like continuously with a hose or pump) there wouldn't be a reason to use it -- it's too small to get much circulating-flow.

IIRC Kubota uses drain plugs (1/8"? 1/4"?) on the B series instead of a drain cock (as Kb calls it on our M25.)
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2020, 11:15:11 AM »

Stu

The google search link I posted to BA calls up the forums that have Rod's flushing procedure (and/or copy/pastes thereof) and one or two links to his pix (bucket sitting on the sole.)  I didn't find a vid of it, but I didn't take the time to search for every one of is posts to see if he linked to a vid.  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I don't know if you are aware - maybe you are -- our coolant petcock (stbd side) is a ball valve so, unlike a globe valve, there shouldn't be much to clog and a particle would be self cleared as far as when the valve is operated.  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thanks, Ken.

This one makes sense:  https://forums.sailboatowners.com/threads/engine-flushing-cooling-system-question.106410/

It's the second one down in your Google results.

And I also think you meant gate valve, not globe.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 11:15:56 AM by Stu Jackson »
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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2020, 11:07:44 PM »

Stu

This is RC's most complete procedure
https://www.sailnet.com/forums/1252482-post5.html

I just put it his steps and his pix on the
Wiki > Engine > Cooling (top entry.)




Actually, I did mean "globe."  The typical petcock drain (like atop our TStat) isn't a gate valve, nor a plug valve, nor a ball, diaphragm, butterfly, sliding knife gate, pinch, or wedge valve.  I don't know what's left. 

I thought it most resembles how a globe operates because it has a valve disk (chamfered plug type instead of flat or ball or cone) that closes against a valve seat (and can pinch debris and dribble.)
Shown closed against valve seat below.



BUT, it has 3 differences (I know you know the details, this is for non techies.)
The action is reversed - the stem pulls up, instead of pushes down against the valve seat (coolant system pressure makes it seal better,)
The flow when open is thru the hollow stem (instead of an outlet above the valve seat,) and
It's missing the valve body (the radiator/engine block/tstat housing becomes the globe.) 

It was really quite an ingenious invention - eliminated many parts by combining functions and eliminated the need for a globe body.

I ran out of valve types, maybe there's a ME out there who can more properly identify the type!!??

A bit of Trivia - Henry used the same type ball valve petcock as we have on our engines on his Model T !!!


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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2020, 08:12:31 AM »

I made it down to the boat last night to do a couple of odd jobs. I went rooting around the port side of the engine (which is not easily accessible on the MkII boats) and found what I think is a pleasant surprise. I managed to get a decent pic, even though it was difficult for the camera phone to focus at such short range. I can't really see where this valve is tapped into, and the online pictures of the M35B don't catch the correct angle. It's either a second oil outlet from the crank case, or a drain valve from the coolant manifold. My guess is the latter, since it's clearly next to a screw-in "plug" (and far above the bottom of the oil plan), and I've heard mention of a coolant plug in this vicinity. But before I go opening it, I'd like your advice on which it is, and also a comment or two over whether this is a common feature or something that a PO tapped in as a custom job.

Also, I suspect at least one of you will notice the painted hose above it, which I think leads from the oil reservoir down to the oil pressure alarm switch (and optional port for oil pressure sender), and has no hose clamp on it. Is this unusual? I know from reaching down there that this will be extremely hard to access to add a clamp after the fact.
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KWKloeber

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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2020, 12:57:14 PM »


and the online pictures of the M35B don't catch the correct angle. I


painted hose ..... has no hose clamp on it.



Download a copy of your Operator's Manual from the Wiki!!  It shows 8) the coolant drain locations on the 25xpb, 35B, and 50B engines.   Someone exchanged the drain plug shown in the literature for your petcock. Nice! :thumb:
The exploded parts manual shows the drain plug as well (but doesn't ID it as "coolant".)


The OEM oil-pressure-switch hose has swaged ends, no clamps.  The last time I ordered one (to convert an M25 to add an oil pressure gauge) it had swivel ends (whether it was on one or both ends, I don't recall.)  Hose clamps wouldn't be appropriate OEM for an oil hose that could theoretically see 80+ psi.  One might get by with that if replacing one.

Note that over several years engine heat could deteriorate that hose and it leak - it happened on my M25 (at age 13 or thereabouts.)
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2020, 05:18:19 AM »

I now see the swaged end in the picture. It was not obvious due to the paint.

I have all the manuals downloaded and in hard copies, and they are always my first point of reference. But I still wasn't sure exactly what I was taking a picture of because of how I had to blindly stick my phone down there, so I hoped some others would recognize it.
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KWKloeber

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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2020, 04:14:36 PM »

I now see the swaged end in the picture. It was not obvious due to the paint.

I have all the manuals downloaded and in hard copies, and they are always my first point of reference. But I still wasn't sure exactly what I was taking a picture of because of how I had to blindly stick my phone down there, so I hoped some others would recognize it.

BA, ok your post post threw me - I thought the issue was you couldn't locate the drain location in a manual, I didn't take it that the issue was locating it on the engine due to the limited space/view.

Anyhew, for other B engine owners, here it is:

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Ron Hill

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Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2020, 03:09:56 PM »

Guys : I'm absolutely baffled by a quest for the "BEST Anti freeze"?? 
I always thought that there were really only a couple of characteristics that you needed to for in anti freeze - at what low temperature does the mixture start to congeal, water-pump lubrication, rust inhibitor and some longevity (lasts more than a year before breaking down).  Most major brands profess they have these characteristics??!!

Also I'm interested in "who" it is that did all of the testing to decide "which" is the best!! Their criteria and test parameters??
Also It would seem to me that the "water (cooling) jacket" in any engine (spark or compression) is about the same. Temperature of approx 160 degrees also should be the same in our small diesel engines or small gasoline engines. Temp. Might be much higher in large truck engines?!? Probably be a difference depending on the metal that the engine block is cast out of.

A few thoughts
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 04:45:18 PM by Ron Hill »
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