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Author Topic: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes  (Read 1827 times)

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Noah

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2019, 10:03:29 AM »

If it was my boat I would quit trying to chase etc. as you have enough old/bad wire and parts that could use replacing. I would (and have done) the following:
1. Remove the panel and clean-up rewire/recrimp all gauge connections,
2. Update the old panel faceplate to new version and remove the alarm circuit board, and replace any “sketchy” parts, add the dual alarm temp and pressure modification to engine.
3. Remove and replace the wiring harness with new tinned wire harness, directly wiring it to panel and engine—eliminating all plugs. All parts are available from www.CatalinaDirect.com or you can make your own harness or perhaps buy harness from Ken K.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 10:04:58 AM by Noah »
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Ted Pounds

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2019, 11:23:47 AM »

If it was my boat I would quit trying to chase etc. as you have enough old/bad wire and parts that could use replacing. I would (and have done) the following:
1. Remove the panel and clean-up rewire/recrimp all gauge connections,
2. Update the old panel faceplate to new version and remove the alarm circuit board, and replace any “sketchy” parts, add the dual alarm temp and pressure modification to engine.
3. Remove and replace the wiring harness with new tinned wire harness, directly wiring it to panel and engine—eliminating all plugs. All parts are available from www.CatalinaDirect.com or you can make your own harness or perhaps buy harness from Ken K.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :thumb: :thumb:
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ChrisW

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2019, 11:39:03 AM »

If it was my boat I would quit trying to chase etc. as you have enough old/bad wire and parts that could use replacing. I would (and have done) the following:
1. Remove the panel and clean-up rewire/recrimp all gauge connections,
2. Update the old panel faceplate to new version and remove the alarm circuit board, and replace any “sketchy” parts, add the dual alarm temp and pressure modification to engine.
3. Remove and replace the wiring harness with new tinned wire harness, directly wiring it to panel and engine—eliminating all plugs. All parts are available from www.CatalinaDirect.com or you can make your own harness or perhaps buy harness from Ken K.

This is what I'll do then, as well as the other suggestions made by Ken.  Thanks everybody for your help.
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KWKloeber

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2019, 11:52:59 AM »

On the C34 I understand that the fuel can flow w/o the pump being on (if the tank is half full?)
C34 owners can speak better to that.

If you have the cash to spend, then replace the whole shebang as Noah suggests. 
Whether you NEED to, depends on the condition of the copper conductors.  For instance, if they have chased corrosion along the untinned copper, replace em.  But if the conductors are ok, then once you use adhesive heat shrink terminals (step 3/4 below) the harness will be 99% as good as a new one - You've prevented moisture from getting to the copper.  OMB, I clipped the harness back a foot, added new, longer pigtails w/AHS terminals, and voila saved a ton of cash and have a "marine grade" harness. 

If not then IIWMB I'd do these steps to get away at least expense:

1 - replace the key sw. Do all sws if they are old.
2 - lose the gummy bear plug(s) - butt splice end together. (If you need more length to do that then do #3)
3 - refurb the wiring terminals (new short jumpers?) on the panel, if needed add longer pigtails to make it easy to pull the panel.
4 - refurb the engine end of the harness, new heat shrink terminals, substituting the ORG for the YEL/RED.  Fuse the red power wire on the B solenoid terminal.
5 - Do the other alt out and alt ground, and battery neg cable (and other negatives) improvements posted previously
6. Substitute the ORG for the YEL wire (see *** below). 


***Use the #10 ORG in place of the lighter gauge YEL.  Put yellow heat shrink tubing on each end and add a red stripe w/ Sharpie(tm) to identify that.  A different color isn't fatal, it's just that YEL/RED stripe is the standard for the starter solenoid circuit.  Or mark the ORG w/ a label gun and cover w/ clear HST  (Or do both!)  Keep the yellow wire handy.  The alarm circuit board on the back of the panel is prone to failure, no replacement. Then you can use the YEL to add a hi-temp switch on the engine thermostat housing.  There's other ways to do that, but having the unused YEL wire just makes it easy.

I have posted before about "strongly" disagreeing with buying a substandard harness from CD, but that's YBYC.  I feel the same about the CD panel. (can't do a thumbs down)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 11:53:54 AM by KWKloeber »
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KWKloeber

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2019, 01:26:04 PM »



This is what I'll do then



Chris just do homework before buying...

Believe it or not, there's folks out there who can rip you off on inferior products.
You want to install a "marine" ABYC compliant harness and panel :thumb: Not a (IMO) junk one that has cheaper, non-marine terminals. :shock:

jus sayin'







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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

ChrisW

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2019, 01:56:39 PM »

On the C34 I understand that the fuel can flow w/o the pump being on (if the tank is half full?)
C34 owners can speak better to that.

If you have the cash to spend, then replace the whole shebang as Noah suggests. 
Whether you NEED to, depends on the condition of the copper conductors.  For instance, if they have chased corrosion along the untinned copper, replace em.  But if the conductors are ok, then once you use adhesive heat shrink terminals (step 3/4 below) the harness will be 99% as good as a new one - You've prevented moisture from getting to the copper.  OMB, I clipped the harness back a foot, added new, longer pigtails w/AHS terminals, and voila saved a ton of cash and have a "marine grade" harness. 

If not then IIWMB I'd do these steps to get away at least expense:

1 - replace the key sw. Do all sws if they are old.
2 - lose the gummy bear plug(s) - butt splice end together. (If you need more length to do that then do #3)
3 - refurb the wiring terminals (new short jumpers?) on the panel, if needed add longer pigtails to make it easy to pull the panel.
4 - refurb the engine end of the harness, new heat shrink terminals, substituting the ORG for the YEL/RED.  Fuse the red power wire on the B solenoid terminal.
5 - Do the other alt out and alt ground, and battery neg cable (and other negatives) improvements posted previously
6. Substitute the ORG for the YEL wire (see *** below). 


***Use the #10 ORG in place of the lighter gauge YEL.  Put yellow heat shrink tubing on each end and add a red stripe w/ Sharpie(tm) to identify that.  A different color isn't fatal, it's just that YEL/RED stripe is the standard for the starter solenoid circuit.  Or mark the ORG w/ a label gun and cover w/ clear HST  (Or do both!)  Keep the yellow wire handy.  The alarm circuit board on the back of the panel is prone to failure, no replacement. Then you can use the YEL to add a hi-temp switch on the engine thermostat housing.  There's other ways to do that, but having the unused YEL wire just makes it easy.

I have posted before about "strongly" disagreeing with buying a substandard harness from CD, but that's YBYC.  I feel the same about the CD panel. (can't do a thumbs down)

What size fuse should be on the red power wire?  Would it also be a good idea to put two fuses on each wire coming from the I terminal as well?  How much current would you think it would take to ruin that connection to the I terminal of the key switch?
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Noah

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2019, 02:32:23 PM »

I see nothing wrong with buying the wiring harness from Catalina Direct.  It is good, properly sized, color-coded, tinned wire. Just use your own heat shrink ring terminals instead of their Euro connector strips and wire directly to panel and engine. Sure, you will end up paying a bit more for it than the sum of the parts, but for me it was way less hassel than searching out and buying various cut wires alone.
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KWKloeber

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2019, 03:04:26 PM »



What size fuse should be on the red power wire?  Would it also be a good idea to put two fuses on each wire coming from the I terminal as well?  How much current would you think it would take to ruin that connection to the I terminal of the key switch?



Chris, I have told peeps to use one step above the smallest that will not blow with everything on (blower, preheat, starter engaged)  That depends on whether you get rid of the unnecessary glow plug relay and power the glow plugs directly (more amps.)  No more than a 30a.

Unfortunately, I haven't taken a pic how to do/or the completed the fuse.  Next time I WILL. 
You basically need an M8 x #8 tinned starter lug, #10-12 butt connector, a #10 gauge tinned wire AGC fuse holder w/a weather cap.  The hardest part is getting your hands on a crimper for a #8 lug.

The only things that pass thru the I terminal contacts are gauges, fuel pump, alt field excite and blower.  All of those together won't burn the contacts if you use a GOOD switch.  I don't know how many ways to say this -- be cautious of what you buy and from what source.
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Ron Hill

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2019, 04:01:31 PM »

Chris : BAD news -  In the #28 reply picture it looks to me like you still have (at least) one of the "Gummy Bear" trailer connectors.  Look in Critical Updates and please change out that/those fire hazard connectors!!!

Good news -  In picture 3 of reply #29 - you have the "dog house" Hi temp alarm. Changes analog movement of the temp needle to digital and sound a low buzzing sound!!

A few thoughts
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 02:33:09 PM by Ron Hill »
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ChrisW

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2019, 04:21:06 PM »

Chris : BAD news -  In the #28 reply picture it looks to me like you still have (at least) one of the "Gummy Bear" trailer connectors.  Lokk in Updates and pleases change out that/those fire hazards!!!

Good news -  In picture 3 of reply #29 - you have the "dog house" Hi temp alarm. Changes analog movement of the temp needle to digital and sound a low buzzing sound!!

A few thoughts

The high temp alarm I know works. It went off after I wasn't paying attention and the impeller died on me.
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KWKloeber

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2019, 07:03:20 PM »


I see nothing wrong with buying the wiring harness from Catalina Direct.  It is good, properly sized, color-coded, tinned wire. Just use your own heat shrink ring terminals instead of their Euro connector strips and wire directly to panel and engine. Sure, you will end up paying a bit more for it than the sum of the parts, but for me it was way less hassel than searching out and buying various cut wires alone.


Noah, Don't get me wrong, buying wire from wherever, at whatever cost, is a personal decision. 

Chris, in my brevity I didn't make my point well - CD markets a "harness" but it's NOT a harness - it's an 18-foot hunk of copper.  Very expensive copper at that.  A bottom paint job is not the yard handing me a can of VC-17 and then needing to buy my own pan and roller.  (IMO) CD should be honest about it, or sell a complete plug 'n play harness.

Noah,

For a comparison, I looked back and the last harness (just wire cost) was $66; CD is $148 (2-1/4 times more.)  That's retail (not wholesale) cost.  Additionally, that included these circuits:
  - fuel gauge (not in CD)
  - oil pressure gauge (not in CD)
  - Hx, fuel tank and deck fill bond wires (not in CD)
  - fuel tank sender negative wire (not in CD)

Also, that was 100% Ancor wire, not cheaper Pacer or whatever CD sells.  So if owners want to pay 225% for convenience that's their biz, but then it's (IMO) kinda disingenuous if they complain about West Marine, etc., prices.  CD does provide a valuable service to owners but (IMO) this is not one of those instances.

I do take a minor issue w/ CD being "correctly" sized, but if owners want to buy more than needed, again that's their decision.  I call it "right-sizing" and CD doesn't "right size" its hunk of copper.  (IMO) It's pointless to run 14 ga for gauges - they are not current carrying circuits.

The (IMO) correct harness for an M-25/XP is:
   - #10 power, preheat (DON'T do the preheat mod,) and negative (actually only #14 is needed.)
   - #14 fuel pump/alt excite, and tach signal.
   - #16 temp gauge, oil switch, and temp switch.

I have used #8 for power/neutral for low V loss if an owner wants a high-current outlet in the cockpit (say for a halogen spotlight.)

Tinned marine wire is available with a couple clicks of the mouse -- the same place owners buy the terminals to add to the CD hunk of copper.

As far as CD's pre-fab panel, the fact is using Sta-Kon terminals on a marine panel is unconscionable, no less the euro strip CD uses (using it as intended is non-ABYC compliant.)



The high temp alarm I know works. It went off after I wasn't paying attention and the impeller died on me.


Chris, understand that when that circuit board fails (those are prone to that) there's no way of knowing it (unless if you overheat and notice the gauge or the engine seizes.)  The alarm that sounds with the key on (I hope it sounds) does not verify the temp alarm, only the low-oil-pressure alarm.  Some have added a small push button to check the temp alarm.

When you replace your harness and want to add the hi-temp alarm, there's a whole lot cheaper way than CD's $270 cost.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 07:16:05 PM by KWKloeber »
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Noah

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2019, 07:44:11 PM »

The wire harness purchase was a personal cost/benefit equation that worked for me.
RE THEIR PANEL; TO CLARIFY:
I never suggested buying their panel, ONLY the replacement faceplate—which I did buy—but I also complained to them, and on this Forum, that I didn’t appreciate their shameless advertising (logo and telephone #) branding on that faceplate. Unfortunately theirs is the only (semi) affordable faceplate option available that I knoW of.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 07:57:26 PM by Noah »
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KWKloeber

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2019, 08:24:11 PM »

I have reason to believe, but have not verified lately, that unbranded panels are still supplied by Dennis I.
At least they were a few yrs ago when he/I discussed options.
digarashi@earthlink.net
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

KWKloeber

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2019, 11:13:13 AM »

I have reason to believe, but have not verified lately, that unbranded panels are still supplied by Dennis I.
At least they were a few yrs ago when he/I discussed options.
digarashi@earthlink.net

Hey Chris I just remembered

MMES had "Catalina//Yachts" branded AC/DC panels (and plain as well) when I last spoke w/ Mark.  I'm sure they can or have done CTY branded engine panels.  I believe that they will also sell you just a face plate.

"Mark" at
www.wewireboats.com

Depending on what you decide w/your exist harness, if you do decide to keep it and want a fuse setup, I'll be glad to throw one into the mail n/c the next time I make one up.  It's a pain cus you need a special crimper for the solenoid lug.

-k
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

Ron Hill

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2019, 02:39:26 PM »

Chris : To make sure that that circuit board Hi Temp alarm was worked here's what I did:
On the panel I mounted a momentary toggle switch which connected ground to sender on the Temperature Gage.  This  opened the circuit so the hi temp alarm went off.  So I had a "press to test" that I could check the hi temp alarm!!  Easy to do.

A thought
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